Jenny Tomei 00:11
Hello and welcome back to the JenUp podcast. If you’re struggling with an eating disorder and feeling lost, you’ve certainly come to the right place. Both myself and Becky Stone are former sufferers of eating disorders, and we understand the challenges that you’re facing. So join us for inspiring, educational, relatable content. Whether you’re seeking support, guidance, or just someone who understands, we are here for you. So today’s just Becky and I today. So we’re going to be talking about. So I’ve got some sort of frequently asked questions here from from teachers and various schools around sort of eating disorders. So, I thought it’d be really useful for teachers and parents to listen into this. So, it’s great to all have you back. So, just we’re going to start with the first question. So, looking around, I get asked this question a lot, Becky. So around sort of parents say, how would you work with parents who do not think there are concerns around eating and food? So the teacher’s gone to the parent with concerns. What? How would you work with that?

Becky Stone 01:19
I’ve got something actually I’m working with somebody like the parents that I’m working with at the moment, and I think they’re too frightened to actually address the situation because it gets they don’t want to make the situation worse. But also, sometimes I wonder if there’s underlying their own issues that I’ve got going on. So if they don’t address it, then they don’t have to bring the problem to make it real. But I think what’s really difficult is it needs to be spoken about. And I think about having the right questions. I think if you don’t address it and you you shy away from it, that makes the problem worse.

Jenny Tomei 01:56
Yeah, it does. And what I always say is kind of like if the if the parent sort of saying like no everything’s fine, it’s kind of keep going back to the parent and saying well how is it affecting their you know academics their focus in school like you know are they zoning out in class you know their social sort of life is it starting to affect other areas of their life then that’s when it needs to be looked at doesn’t it it’s

Becky Stone 02:19
yeah I think the normal defense that parents come back with, but they eat a cooked dinner with me at the in the evening. They sit down with us as a family. I’m like, but that’s the one meal. Like, where’s your breakfast? Where’s your sort of your lunch at school? Teachers wouldn’t necessarily flag this up if there wasn’t a like there isn’t a safeguarding concern around

Jenny Tomei 02:40
it. Yeah, no, it’s funny you bring that up actually because obviously when I was struggling with anorexia, my parents used to see me eat dinner, and they thought that I was fine because they’re like, “Oh, she’s eating dinner, she’s fine. Yeah, I mean, I was eating breakfast and lunch, but I was still under eating. So just because I was eating dinner didn’t mean that I didn’t have a problem.

Becky Stone 03:04
Yep, and it’s the you would you show. I know I did it. I show people what I wanted them to see.

Jenny Tomei 03:11
Yeah.

Becky Stone 03:11
So it got them to back off and leave me alone. But it was only a few really close friends who all had eating disorders really pulled me up on it, and I think like with some of the like the people that we work with, when you’ve got an eating disorder, you can spot an eating disorder a mile off. So you can see the behaviours and the avoidance and the the patterns and the the little things that get said. You’re like heightened to it. So and I think sometimes with parents, and it’s not their fault. You’re running around. I know I’ve done it. I brought up two kids, like, and running a business. You’re running around, and you don’t mean to, but you you miss those little vital things because you’re juggling cooking, cleaning, trying to pay the bills, trying to have a little bit you time. When it comes to food, it’s food in, food out. Like you need food as fuel.

Jenny Tomei 04:03
Yeah, yeah, definitely. No, thank you. That it’s just something that has definitely come up a lot, and I think always kind of bring it back to safeguarding as well within the school and discuss it.

Becky Stone 04:13
Also, the with food, I think exercise comes in where parents think that that excessive, I can’t say excessive exercise is is okay. Like they’re being healthy. To me, that’s a big red flag.

Jenny Tomei 04:27
Well, yeah. I mean, I’ve certainly seen that on the rise. I always say it’s the behaviour, it’s the intent, isn’t it, behind the exercise? Like, why are you exercising? Why do you want to exercise? What are you doing it for? Like, that’s what I always question around that, yeah, and

Becky Stone 04:43
not just look at it that it’s something that’s really healthy, and I think that’s what parents like assume that’s going on. But actually, if it’s a little bit out of the norm, why? What’s going on?

Jenny Tomei 04:55
Yeah, it’s it’s fine balance with that, I think. But yeah, thanks for bringing that up. That was a really good point. And then yeah, kind of this one comes up a lot. So and sort of you know what to do in a situation where a group of girls are influencing each other with disordered eating.

Becky Stone 05:19
Oh, not collude, not to be scared to have that conversation, and don’t collude in the behaviour. I think it’s very easy to get drawn in to like disordered eating talk, but I think it’s really being firm of no, that doesn’t sound right, or like, do you really think that’s accurate? Like, really challenge the behaviours. But I think when it comes to a group of people, they’re going to fuel each other, and it tends to be like high-achieving people, perfectionisms, the low self-esteems there, and they will naturally gravitate towards each other because it’s safe, and it makes their behaviour acceptable, so it’s it’s really holding those conversations, staying strong, but don’t be scared to be challenged.

Jenny Tomei 06:11
Yeah, it’s I’ve seen this on the rise in schools, particularly girl schools, and there’s a lot of, and as you said, if you’re in that culture and in that environment, and then as a teacher, like again, is having that whole school approach to targeting that, isn’t it? Because if if there’s a culture of that growing in your school, that is not something that you want to obviously promote or let it continue.

Becky Stone 06:34
And it’s also like with some of the adults that I’ve worked with that are way out of school now. The like the school culture around food and the girls, especially that’s then like a I call it like a mental scar that’s gone on for years, and then when they come into therapy, we’re then still having to address the stuff that was going on at school, the behaviours.

Jenny Tomei 06:56
Well, yeah, because you carry that. I’m just trying to put myself in that position. If I came, if I was in a school where there was a lot of disordered eating or lots of thoughts around dieting, that would stick with me, and I’d have to unpick all that.

Becky Stone 07:09
Well, it’s even like the thing that when we was at school, like when I was at school, because I’m a bit older than you, it was all about thigh gap. It was like it was the 90s, like skinniness was the big thing, but the thigh gaps are not normal. But in school, in the culture with the girls, that’s what made it normal.

Jenny Tomei 07:29
Yeah, and you’ve mentioned it. I’m going to sort of bring it up: weight loss, drugs, culture, kind of you know this skinny sort of look again. Are teenagers using it? Possibly, yes. Are they getting their hands on it? You know, is that going to be on the rise in schools? It’s a concern.

Becky Stone 07:50
Oh, massive concern. And I think being able what what is a normal body now? Like, if you’ve got body checking going on, you’ve got a lot of comparison going on with social media, you’ve got a lot of apps that distort your body image. Like you’ve got all of this stuff. What what’s real now?

Jenny Tomei 08:09
Yeah, I think there is going to be a bit of a distortion of that, and you know, there’s obviously a lot coming out. We should probably do a separate podcast on that, and kind of around. Obviously, we had Joanna Silva from the Ori Clint talk about it. And if you haven’t checked that podcast out, listen to that because she talks about obviously people who’ve had eating disorders that go on GLP ones who have had anorexia and then they end up with like binge eating disorder as well. She spoke about that, didn’t she?

Becky Stone 08:38
Yeah, and I think there is going to be a like a big epidemic of it that’s going to end up unraveling. But I do think going back to your original question of like what parents need to do if they’re not listening, I think getting the teachers to be able to give them some information to read.

Jenny Tomei 08:58
Yeah. Okay.

Becky Stone 08:59
So then, if they’re finding themselves getting defensive because they’re not listening, maybe they would listen to the stuff, but like read up on it once that defense mechanism’s dropped. And also, I think if it is a safeguarding concern, like maybe that the school put-I don’t know whether they’re allowed to do it-but put a log into the GP.

Jenny Tomei 09:20
Yeah, that’s always good. Yeah, does that definitely the safeguarding concern? Yeah,

Becky Stone 09:24
yeah, and also maybe refer on to the eating disorder team.

Jenny Tomei 09:28
Yeah, I mean that can’t hurt. So definitely. So yeah, we’ll go back to a really some really good information here, and so we go back to his other question here. So if you notice a child struggling and they confirm it, but their family do not want do not want to help, what is the best approach? How long would you wait until involving external services? So, again, kind of the same sort of question, but it’s like that kind of time frame. Like, how long do you wait, like, to get external services involved?

Becky Stone 10:05
It’s really hard, isn’t it? Because intervention goes in quicker and like immediately, which means then the eating disorder doesn’t end up escalating. But the way the services are at the moment, that they’re not going to touch. So it’s that bit of monitoring it, trusting your gut instinct, and I would say make a paperwork trail of it all. Put your concerns with the GP because they’ve got clinical responsibility. Because they’re under 18, that is, you have duty of care, and it’s making sure that if one parent doesn’t listen, does the other parent listen?

Jenny Tomei 10:45
Yeah. Okay.

Becky Stone 10:47
So because like parents now have 50-50. So if one parent doesn’t listen, try the other parent, and if both parents don’t listen, that’s where it’s quite difficult. That’s where that may be escalated up, but it really depends the severity of what’s going on. But also that gentle support, helping the young person, touching the like, encouraging them to eat. Do they keep an eye on them? But the thing is, with eating disorders and resources, people don’t have the resources to sit with some with a child every single lunchtime. It’s really hard.

Jenny Tomei 11:25
Well, no, there’s a time factor here. Like teachers, I always say, like you teachers are, mate. You’ve got enough bigger job as it is. You know, you’re having to like do all of this on top as well. So there’s that to consider.

Becky Stone 11:36
Yeah, I would say make sure you’ve got written concerns. If your gut feeling is niggling something’s not right, trust it because the more there’s a paper trail with it, there’s more support with the eating disorder teams getting them picked up, and if the parents are not taking responsibility, that is safeguarding.

Jenny Tomei 11:57
Yeah, safeguarding issue. Yeah. Okay. Amazing. I think that’s been really sort of useful. So again, just to recap, kind of logging those concerns, looking at the behaviour, the severity of it. If in doubt, log it with the GP. Keep going back to the parent.

Becky Stone 12:12
Yeah, and just keep logging it back to the GP because the GP, even though the services are so stretched, and I really get it, is that if your gut feeling and you’re really that concerned about a young person and they’re becoming more and more invisible and the eating disorder is getting worse, keep pushing little notes back. Not little notes. Keep logging emails into the the GP because the GP needs to pick up.

Jenny Tomei 12:36
Yeah. Okay. Okay. Great. I mean, I guess this one is similar to the previous one, so I mean, I think I feel like I already know the answer to this. So, do you think young people can influence each other with disordered eating? So, like, can they sort of influence each other? I mean, yes, they can.

Becky Stone 12:54
Well, their brains are really-I can’t even say the word suscept. Like, I can’t even say it. Probably dyslexic, but their brains are so developing and they’re they’re growing, so they’re going to be holding on to bits of information that are so not true, and they’re going to hold on to it. I remember we had like green foods and red foods or something. Like one of my friends used to be on a diet with that. Like, and even to this day, I always think red foods and green foods. Like I think it was vegetables one day and meat one day, like you couldn’t eat them together. I’m like, what load of nonsense! But that’s

Speaker 1 13:27
what we

Becky Stone 13:28
had growing up.

Jenny Tomei 13:30
Yeah, I mean, I remember in school, like you know, there was a couple of girls like in my class, and I realised that they’re, you know, we’re going back long time now. That their eating behaviours were odd to me. They were peculiar. They were different to mine. And I remember, like, even back then, just trying to copy that, like, and just trying to think, oh, maybe I should start eating like that because I’ve seen the meat a different way. So again, and if you think where we are now, there’s got to be so much of that going on.

Becky Stone 14:05
Oh, 100% And it’s also is that that part of masking of struggling with like exams. It’s the needing to be seen, but actually you’re making yourself invisible. I’d say the biggest rise with it all was is year eight and the GCSEs. Like there is a big rise around the eating disorders and exams.

Jenny Tomei 14:29
So what I guess it’s like if that’s happening in school, what can teachers do? I guess it’s education and kind of just keeping terms on the students that are struggling. Kind of note again, noting behaviours down, taking notes, keeping an eye on the severity of the situation.

Becky Stone 14:45
Yeah, and reiterating how important it is to feed your brain.

Jenny Tomei 14:51
Yeah, I don’t think young people understand how much energy their brain actually uses, like, and because, like you know, I was in school the other day and you know. I said to the the young people, “You had breakfast because they had exams, and I said, “You eat anything yet? I went, “No, okay, so you haven’t eaten anything, and you’ve got an exam coming up. I was like, “Eat before your exam.

Becky Stone 15:13
Banana, like have something.

Jenny Tomei 15:17
I can’t, I can’t focus if I don’t have food, I just can’t. It’s not. I just can’t. So

Becky Stone 15:25
miserable. I’m anxious. I want to cry, or I zone out, or hangry kicks in, and I’m just like, oh, don’t like nobody. Don’t like people. And then start eating. You’re like, oh, I must have been hungry. And I think when kids are going into school and they’re not having breakfast and they’re not having something to eat, they’re already set up to fail. They’re on the back foot.

Jenny Tomei 15:49
Well, yeah, especially if they’re kind of with the dyslexia and the ADHD, they tend to use more energy, don’t they? Like kind of thinking energy, like revising. So their body’s going to be using up that energy on a constant basis. So it’s so important to feed that. If you want to do well in your exams, tell the kids to have breakfast. Like,

Becky Stone 16:06
really, I mean, Breakfast Club would be amazing before their exams. Like, if the school had funding, like Breakfast Club, feed your kids, and you’d get amazing results. Like, you’d come out with like your school would be on fire with their grades. Food is like the biggest thing where kids get up, crawl out of bed, and then walk straight out the door, and they’re not having anything to eat. Or is it that you send a newsletter out promoting that, like, give your kids some food before they go to school, get some snacks put in their bags, like grab and go food?

Jenny Tomei 16:38
Yeah, again, it’s that education, isn’t it? Why they need to eat and fuel themselves, especially around exam season. So, so yeah, and I think yeah, I think that was the main sort of bunch of our questions really, and I think that that’s kind of given something for teachers to kind of think about and kind of go away with. Really, is anything that you want to add before we finish off?

Becky Stone 16:57
I think if they if parents are wanting to do their research, or teachers want to give research out. I think Jenny Langley’s Kent Maudsley Carers Group and Parent Care-that is a really good place to be able to put parents in. And then I think also you got the Beats website. Yeah, there’s a lady on this. I can’t remember her surname, but there’s a lady called. I think her name’s Ruth on LinkedIn. That she’s really good. She does like a coaching program for parents. Her daughter had anorexia. I’m really sorry, I can’t remember her surname, but she is really good. She’s like a really good coach. But I think it it is really important. Education with parents is like the key.

Jenny Tomei 17:45
Is it Ruth Speggles?

Becky Stone 17:47
But no, hang on. Let me have a quick look. I’ve got her on my. I really lovely lady

Jenny Tomei 17:52
who you’re talking about. I might have got her surname wrong. Just so we can kind of um. So she does coaching for parents, or

Becky Stone 18:01
yeah, she’s oh yes, I can’t say her name. Stiggles, S Tiggles,

Jenny Tomei 18:08
yeah,

Becky Stone 18:09
Ruth Stiggles. But she’s got. Let me see. I’ll click on her. If she’s giving me a website.

Jenny Tomei 18:14
Yeah, I thought that’s who you meant.

Becky Stone 18:16
Yeah, so it’s RuthStiggles.co.uk. She’s somebody who, if you don’t want to go straight into eating disorder sort of therapy and eating disorder for nutrition,

Jenny Tomei 18:28
yeah,

Becky Stone 18:29
might be that you get a bit of coaching behind the scenes, understand what it’s about, and then come in. But I think it’s don’t come in firefighting with it. I think you’ve got to get your child on board. The parents got to be on board. The teachers have got to be on board to help, and the GP. Like the whole process is about how to communicate and not avoid the subject.

Jenny Tomei 18:51
Yeah, definitely. Thanks, everyone. I hope that you found that useful today, and thanks, Becky, for your input. Always much appreciated. And thanks everyone for listening.

Becky Stone 19:02
Thank you so much for listening to JenUp podcast. Please subscribe and share this podcast so others can benefit. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram at askjenup.com and Jenny’s website at jenup.com. If you visit the website, you’ll find lots of different resources there. Please like, subscribe, and share.

Jenny Tomei 00:10
Hello and welcome back to the JenUp podcast. If you’re struggling with an eating disorder and feeling lost, you’ve come to the right place. Both myself and Becky Stone are former sufferers of eating disorders, and we understand the challenges that you’re facing. So join us for inspiring, educational, and relatable content. Whether you’re seeking support, guidance, or just someone who understands, we are here for you. So I am very delighted to have Vanessa on the podcast today. So Vanessa is the CEO of Beat Eating Disorders Charity, but most importantly, mum to a daughter who struggled when she was younger. Beat are the UK’s eating disorder charity. They were founded in 1989 as the as the Eating Disorders Association, and their mission is to end the pain and suffering caused by eating disorders. So it’s so wonderful to have you on. I think it’d be amazing to start off with what Beats about and kind of latest things that you’ve been working on.

Vanessa 01:09
Yeah, I think I was really interesting. You you talking about you know when we were founded and why we were founded, and I think I suppose one of the things that’s that’s you know we’re realising is that this is a problem which is not going away. In fact, it is growing, and as a result, we’ve really we’ve really looked at ourselves as as an organisation and what can we do. So one of the things that that has changed is we are trying to say some really simple messages to really hammer at home, which is to anyone out there, eating disorders are not inevitable, and recovery is always possible. So the idea of B is that we are here for anyone who is struggling now with an eating disorder, and we’re working to stop people struggling in the future, and what that means is we need to be that bigger national charity that covers all four nations, all eating disorders, all stages from from prevention through early intervention all the way through to those who perhaps wrestling with a a long term enduring eating disorder. We try and be the wide open front door so that people can come in, but then we are able to pass on and feed into people like yourselves who are doing extraordinary work at a local level, so that together no one falls through the net.

Jenny Tomei 02:40
Yeah, definitely. That’s great. It’s it’s good to have that sort of all rounded sort of approach, and I fully believe that if we all work together, we can support and kind of help people out there who are, you know, who are really struggling with this. And as you said, it’s it’s something that’s on the rise. Yeah,

Speaker 1 02:58
and and and I think so. It’s an interesting, again, an interesting point because one of the things we we are all learning more about is the intersectionality around conditions. We know so many people’s eating disorder is impacted by the intersection of different aspects of their personality, whether that’s disability, their their background, their their sexual identity, and one of the things that we know is that every single one of them is an individual, and and we only offer standardised treatments. So the more we work together, the more likely those individuals are to find something that works for them, and that’s one of the the messages we that’s what we talk about. It’s always treatable. There’s always something else to try. That’s why I ask people to always hold on to hope.

Becky Stone 03:56
Yeah, I think the hope’s really really important. Is what works for one doesn’t work for another.

Speaker 1 04:00
Yeah, yeah, and that’s hard to hear, you know. And I, you know, I’m going to like come in, you know, I’ll switch my hat and be a mum now. Which is when you are watching your child struggle, you’d do anything. You do. You’d crawl over broken glass if it made them better, but you want to make pretty sure that that you’re going in the right direction, and it’s really hard to hear the qualified staff say, “Oh, well, we’ll try this. I don’t want to try it. I want it to work. I want I want a magic pill. Yeah, and and yeah, I think that’s you know an incredibly hard part of the journey. The the well, it’s two things. I think one, not knowing if what you’re doing is the right thing to do, and two, actually having to let your child travel that journey. A lot of it they have to walk themselves. You can walk next. To them, but you you can’t carry them. Horrible realization when I had to when I you know I realised I my daughter had to do her own therapy. I couldn’t do it for her, which is obvious obvious now looking back. She’s very well, but yeah, it’s it’s tricky. So

Becky Stone 05:19
really hard because we get a lot of referrals come through, and it’s the parents wanting the therapy, and then I come back in with, “Is your daughter or your son ready for therapy? And then there’s a bit of a clash there because it’s that bit of your child’s got to want to be part of this process, otherwise it’s not going to work. It’s really hard.

Speaker 1 05:40
Yeah, and it’s really it’s it’s it’s hard to accept as a parent, but it’s also incredibly hard to explain to a child because depending on the age of that child and the stage of their their condition, whereas we as adults sometimes we can see the natural consequences. We’re we’re looking at three or four moves down the line. When you are desperate, you may only be looking at one step ahead. And if this is what you you are using to cope, then then that’s that that might be it. Might the the logic that a parent uses logic can’t ever trump emotion. It never wins. However, what I will say, because it’s the hope message today for any parent out there, is that parents getting parents getting support is always good. So even if your child isn’t ready and can’t take that first step, you can take first step for you, which means you will be in a stronger place to support them. Yeah, and and I think we as as parents we need to support each other, and certainly Beat has whole programs to support, and also more than anything to actually have an understanding that you’re not alone; that there are many other people out there who are going through similar things,

Becky Stone 07:02
yeah. Support and resources and connections so important.

Speaker 1 07:06
Yeah, but and validation. There is something. I think. I mean, there were many things that helped for me, but the one thing that was said to me, which was transformative at the time when things were at their hardest, the thing that was transformative was someone saying to me, “You do know you’re doing a good job.

Becky Stone 07:29
Oh, did you burst into tears?

Speaker 1 07:31
Oh my gosh! It was I. I say it’s a it was a it was a three tissue response because because it was I of course you question yourself, and it was, I wasn’t yet seeing results.

Becky Stone 07:49
Yeah, but you

Speaker 1 07:50
had to keep going, and you wake up every morning, and it’s another day to get through, and yeah. So that was having someone who had been there and had seen it and had come out the other side saying to me, “No, everything you’re doing is is is great. Just keep all you need to do is keep going. Was really powerful, and I know that’s exactly some of the stuff that you’re doing is helping people see that it’s not always about press this button and that happens. Sometimes it’s about showing your love, your support, your your care, and knowing that that over time will make a difference.

Becky Stone 08:36
Yeah, creating trust and purpose, and also hearing what those little bits, but I look at it like a jigsaw puzzle. It’s trying to find the little bit and pull it together very gently, so it’s not so overwhelming. Because recovery is overwhelming.

Speaker 1 08:51
Yeah, and it’s

Becky Stone 08:52
those little baby steps that come together. And that lady or gentleman, whoever said that to you, is would just caught you right at the right moment and was just like, “You got this, you’re doing all right.

Speaker 1 09:02
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I spoke to a mum the other day, and you know she’s fine with me sharing the story. But she, the support that she’d had, said, talk about the future, talk about something, find the thing that your daughter wants to do when they’re better, and she had a conversation with her daughter at a really difficult point that wasn’t about the illness; it was about a bit of hope for the future. And her daughter wanted to go to Iceland, and and so there she is. Of course, what what’s the first thing you do as a mummer? You want to go to Iceland? We’ll make that happen. So started looking at it, and it just totally coincidentally, Beat were doing a fundraising trek the following year in Iceland, and in that moment, she was like, “Okay, this is a sign. We’ve got, you know, we’ll do this, and. Was it that that made the difference? No, no, it wasn’t. It wasn’t doing it for B. No one gets better for B. She got better because because there was hope, and there was a team of support around her, and she was getting the right treatment. But hope counts.

Becky Stone 10:16
Yeah, purpose.

Speaker 1 10:18
Yeah, yeah,

Jenny Tomei 10:20
yeah. Definitely, that was the same for me, though. Recovery, like I wanted to do all these things. I wanted to do all these amazing things in my life. Like I, I, I wanted to have my own business. I wanted to be an entrepreneur, and to do that, I had to recover. Like, I was very goal orientated, and I wanted to get to that goal. So, and recovery had to come with that, even though it was scary.

Speaker 1 10:45
Yeah, yeah, and we hear that a lot. And again, there’s, there’s, we know that there is some association with you know we we find again and again people who are goal orientated who who develop an eating disorder, and and sometimes we need to accommodate that. You know that that that these are sometimes I often I’ll often talk about the fact that sometimes our greatest strengths can also be our greatest weaknesses, and and these are things that we’re really good at. And then when we apply it to something that’s unhealthy, we can become really good at that unhealthy behaviour. But when it’s applied to something healthy, you you achieve your the goals that are that are that are great great goals for you.

Becky Stone 11:34
I describe it like a handbrake. Like when I when I was ill, it was like a handbrake. I was not gonna budge, like unless I budged it, it was not gonna budge. And like it’s a bit like when somebody’s pulled my handbrake up so high, and I want it to go down, but I can’t push the button. But I’ve got to find a solution to push the button down. So normally for me, it’s running around finding which neighbor is in, going, “Can you help me, please? And once that handbrake, that button gets pushed in and it goes down, it becomes a little bit easier. But you’ve got to want that handbrake to go down. And using your like for me, it was my stubbornness and my determination and my drive and to create new dopamine, new drives in the right direction. But it it was my hindrance and my strength.

Speaker 1 12:23
Yeah, I mean, and I think that’s the thing, isn’t it? When we, I mean, so many misconceptions out there about eating disorders. I still come across people who are convinced that eating disorders are a choice. People are choosing it rather than it being an illness, or it’s always about losing weight, which it isn’t necessarily, or you can always see it, or it’s always about food. I mean, so many misconceptions out there, but the one thing that no one ever talks about is that Actually, sometimes what we’re seeing is an overactive strength. It’s under other circumstances people get praised for all sorts of things that, when they practice it around control of food, is is not healthy, so yeah. Determination. How can that be a negative? Well, when it’s applied in in an eating disorder, that’s problematic. But I sure I’m sure not going to condemn you for being determined because look where you are.

Becky Stone 13:34
Yeah.

Speaker 1 13:35
And and what I like to say is when I see people who have recovered, who are in recovery, or who are fighting to recover from an eating disorder of an eating disorder, I time and time again see people with huge strength, whereas they’re portrayed as huge weakness. I see people with a massive amount of self-direction and determination and goal-oriented and and people who are going to succeed in life, but it’s a hard route to take. But it is absolutely possible. Recovery is always possible.

Jenny Tomei 14:16
Yeah, I can really relate to what you just said there. Like I was very determined, very goal orientated person, like everything, very high achieving, perfectionist. Becky helped me with my perfectionism. Actually, she pointed it out, and I said, “Yep. And she actually really helped. She was the only person that actually helped me. No one could like Becky did. So, and and she’s that’s why she’s good at what she does. The opposite, like she’s completely opposite to me, which is hilarious. Like, and I’m just like, nope, we got to do this that way. Like, and complement each other. Like, yeah. One

Speaker 1 15:00
of the joys of one of the joys of Beat as a charity is, of course, we we we have a lot of people with lived experience, and I love that. I love working in an organization where the understanding and the of the importance of what we do is is is embedded and at the heart of and lived by so many of our staff. But it does mean we work in an organisation where we encourage each other to not be superhuman, and it’s that this kind of are you are you trying to get that 100% right? And so and someone goes no no no no it’s fine at 98% and then there’s you know we it’s we obviously have to be. We’re incredibly supportive, but yeah, perfectionism is a. It can creep up on you. Just find yourself pushing yourself a little bit too hard, and and I try and dial that back to say, look, wherever it is, it is, and then we can iterate. It could be 1% better next time, rather than trying to. Eventually, it will get to 100% It doesn’t matter if it’s any. You know, if if our goal is just to make it a little bit better, that’s good, I think.

Becky Stone 16:10
Yeah, that 1% is so important. Is working what with what’s manageable. I think where I’m dyslexic, like I’m very different to Jen. I’m I’m so used to making mistakes. I I don’t tend to have a perfectionist driver, so but then I’m the opposite. Where generals strive for perfection, I look at failure as there’s so much growth.

Speaker 1 16:29
Yeah.

Becky Stone 16:30
So for me, there’s treasures within the treasure chest with failure.

Speaker 1 16:34
Yeah. Yeah. It’s that fail fast motto that they they developed in in Silicon Valley, they call it with all of the tech companies. It’s one of the. It was one of their. Their drivers was was was go fast, fail fast, because that way we learn the most. Now I’m not suggesting they got everything right there, but I think there is something about moving forward as a group, and it’s one of our values at Beat is that is that we challenge ourselves, and therefore we can guarantee at some point things will go wrong. And when they go wrong, we group around, we group around, we solve it together, because that’s what you do. You don’t. No one fails on their own at Beat. We take we take sensible risk, and we do our best. So, you know, and we’re all human, undeniably.

Becky Stone 17:32
Very powerful, isn’t

Speaker 1 17:33
it? I think so.

Jenny Tomei 17:35
It’s very true, and I do try and tell myself that. Like, I am better. I am better than what I used to be so. I am. I am. I used to be terrible,

Speaker 1 17:45
but look how much you’ve

Jenny Tomei 17:47
done. No, I know. I used to be awful. Like I actually, what what Becky was saying was like I realised the day it was actually holding me back because it was just like I wouldn’t get anything done because it was holding me back, and I had to like work through that. And like what Becky said, like I’ve learned from like from from failing, and you learn so much from that, and because you can’t get everything right the first time, and that’s okay, and that just took a bit of time to learn, and and I I do see perfection in a lot of students in school, like I see it so much that the pressure and the stress they put on themselves, and that does affect their relationship with food because of the pressure that they’re putting upon themselves.

Speaker 1 18:27
Yeah, and unfortunately, our school system is designed to reinforce that. I mean, it’s very rare that even even very young children will get a certificate for for having you know tried really hard, we still they all know that the main certificates are for getting things right, and yeah, I remember my daughter coming home from school. She just got a new maths teacher, and she got 99% on her maths test, and I kid you not, it said at the bottom 99% Try harder next time. I just thought, yeah, is this what we’re telling our kids? Is this the message we’re giving them? And I do think that is the message increasingly, really quite young children are are feeling, and that’s. I mean, I know that’s a that’s a direct message, and you wouldn’t necessarily get that a lot, a lot, you know. And I know teachers do their best, but there is this kind of societal feeling that ordinary and human and a bit messy is not quite enough. Interesting.

Becky Stone 19:42
So I had that at school. One of my school reports every year seven or year eight, and even the headmaster commented on it. Said if Rebecca stopped interfering in everybody’s lives and stopped daydreaming, she’d be a grade eight student, which is really interesting because I interfere in everybody’s lives now and. Like I am a bit of a daydreamer, but those daydreams connect everybody together into their recovery. Like that is the beauty of my brain; it follows patterns, and I I need to think and switch off and connect. So it’s really interesting that that weakness that they saw wasn’t actually like I look at that report, and it’s blatantly obvious. It’s one of my amazing strengths, but I was shamed for it. And I think being able to see people for their strengths and their skills and their values for who they are,

Speaker 1 20:28
absolutely. And and if we were all the same, for starters, there you know there wouldn’t be enough jobs to go around because you know we’d all be I don’t know what I don’t know what school will turn out, but also wouldn’t it be dull? Wouldn’t be dull if we if we were all identical? And I think that’s the thing. You know, it’s one of the. I know I know this sound. It might sound like we’re not talking about eating disorders, but this is what we need to be talking about because when you are out in schools, when we’re talking to parents, we don’t want to start a conversation. The first conversation about this stuff shouldn’t be, “Darling, I’m worried you’ve got an eating disorder. That that’s not where we start. We should be starting with our very young children being really comfortable with difference, and all sorts of difference, and actually loving who they are and what they are-not just their bodies, but inside as well, because that’s where our confidence and happiness and joy comes from.

Jenny Tomei 21:32
Yeah, definitely, I couldn’t agree more. And then, obviously, because you know, I’m working in a lot in schools at the moment as well. I’m really enjoying it, and just kind of wanted to kind of see, just talk about the patterns and what I’m seeing as well. Like, I I’m seeing in schools like a general increase in body image concerns. Like, like I’m seeing an increase in that. I just wondered, like, from Beats’ perspective, are you seeing an increase in kind of certain issues with schools, like in regards to eating disorders, disordered eating, or general concerns.

Speaker 1 22:06
Yeah, absolutely. So, I mean, I think the first thing is we know all of the indicators are that eating disorders are increasing, which is really concerning. And alongside that, we know that there is research out there that that shows us there are certain things happening in today’s society which is going to make that grow even more. The variety of challenges is pretty is is broad. So we’ve got a huge increase in the number of schools recognising that certain behaviours are now more likely to be an eating disorder than whereas perhaps a few years ago they might have said fussy eating, which it never was. Now they’re actually identifying it as ARFID or disordered eating, and so there, there’s a real keenness from schools, and I just want to do a call out right now for teachers and teaching staff because they never fail to amaze me. They are extraordinary. I mean, you train as a teacher. I’m assuming you train as a teacher because you love kids and you love you love learning probably because you enjoyed school. I don’t know, but you know it’s that they are on the front line, and they are dealing with so much, and they are not experts in every medical condition, and and especially with eating disorders, the signs aren’t always obvious, and it could be hard for staff to feel confident in identifying it, and we get a lot of that from school staff who are they don’t want to label kids, but at the same time, there’s something telling them that they need to be concerned. So probably, if I was saying what’s the main thing that comes through from schools, would actually be teachers worried about how to have a conversation with a young person, and then and with the parents. It’s about what do you say, when do you say it, and and then how do you avoid making anything worse because you don’t want to call people out if it’s going to make it worse. So you know, and and we have we have support for that. So really happy to talk to any teachers and and help them with that. But it’s I can really understand why and how difficult it is to try and make that decision when you are not the expert. And what I would always say to any teacher out there is, if you are worried. If a flag is popping up, then that’s the time to do something, and that may not be deciding to stop the whole class and start a lecture on eating disorders. That’s not going to be helpful. But there are ways and means to do this. And if you are worried, what what we. Hear again and again from people who in recovery is that even if they hated it at the time, they are glad that someone said something. So even if you get pushback, even if they say, “Don’t be ridiculous, there’s nothing wrong with me. What you’re doing is planting a seed where what you’re saying is people care about you, and we’re here if you need us. So there’s all of that, but there’s also, I think the real worry is what to do next. So they know they’ve got growth in conditions like ARFID and many other eating disorders, but they are looking to refer pupils on, and they don’t know where to refer them, or they suggest they take them to the the GP. And then what arrives back in school is a young person who says, “Oh, I told I was told I wasn’t ill enough for treatment. And then you’re a teacher and a parent watching your child deteriorate further and further until they end up in in quite potentially in hospital, and and I think that’s really hard. I mean think that’s hard morally for teachers, let alone emotionally for for families. So yeah, that’s what we’re hearing on the front line for from teachers.

Jenny Tomei 26:25
Yeah, it’s interesting you said because that’s just what I’m seeing is that the these students, you know, all sort of year groups really that they they don’t meet this sort of threshold and this sort of requirement sort of to you know to go into treatment, and obviously cams have got. It depends on what area you’re in. They’ve got a very long waiting list, and it’s it’s difficult. And you kind of feel like, well, what do you do? Because I, you know, I see a lot of students that have got issues of feed, and because they’re not eating lunch, they’re skipping lunch, and they’re not eating enough throughout the day. And that they still need help. Like, and that’s that’s that kind of early intervention, and something that I’ve been working on locally around schools here. That’s what I’ve been doing. So,

Speaker 1 27:15
yeah.

Jenny Tomei 27:16
And I think that’s yeah. I think it’s just really important to do. So,

Speaker 1 27:20
it’s so important. It’s so important to make sure that the and and this can happen at any time. And this is the point: you never know what’s going to walk into the classroom. And so we need to make sure we’re always there. We’re always around. Someone said to me the other day that we’re a distressed purchase. I looked a bit blank at them, and they said it’s a bit like a like they they come from a marketing background, and they say it’s a bit like buying a washing machine. And I’m thinking, do I need to be offended here? But no, it does make sense. Which is like if your washing machine is working, you don’t think about it ever. But the moment your washing machine breaks, you want to know everything: spin, speed, load amount. You need to know everything now, and and and that’s what you were saying about about eating disorder. When his his daughter developed an eating disorder, and he realised that’s what it was. That was what it never. He hadn’t researched eating disorders in advance, just in case. In the same ways, he hadn’t researched broken ankles just in case. He was just busy enjoying and loving and raising his daughter. And then when he realised there was a problem, he was like, “Right, okay, I need all of the information now. And I do think that we have an obligation to be visible, to be seen, and to be out there trying to make sure that that people know where to turn.

Jenny Tomei 28:44
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think I think that’s there’s a lot to be said for that. And and do just something that’s come up whilst organised. Do we have any actual statistics on like what like causes like why eating disorders are actually on the rise? Like, what’s are there any sort of statistics on that at the moment? Or

Speaker 1 29:00
yeah, we’re I mean, we’re going to be coming up with some new prevalence numbers.

Jenny Tomei 29:04
Okay. I mean,

Speaker 1 29:05
it’s soon. Every measure. What what we’re doing is we’re looking at all of the data and reanalysing it because I think it’s very easy to get lost in the big numbers. So we say at the moment there’s 1.2 5 million people, at least, currently living with an eating disorder in the UK, and we know that’s growing. But it doesn’t matter what measure you use; there, it’s growing across the board. And in my personal opinion, you can you could say 1.25 million, you could say 4 million. Every single one of those people is someone who needs help, and it’s in the individual stories that I think we realise, and you see how many times we miss all the opportunities to help can be missed. So, in terms of why, I wish it were one thing, because if it were one thing, we could throw everything at it, and then we could solve it, and then and then and then it would all be better. What we know is that eating disorders are this incredibly complex illness because there is some genetic tendency, there’s something in there that we know. We know that there are. I mean, really interestingly, I mean, there’s a there’s some research out recently that looks at the link between hypermobility and eating disorders that gives you a higher likelihood. So there’s all there’s lots of research that shows there are physical things that that there’s biology that can give you a tendency towards an eating disorder, but then we also know that if you have four or more adverse childhood experiences, again, which is open technical way of saying bad stuff happens to you as a kid, you’re much more likely to develop an eating disorder if you come from a home that didn’t have enough food in it when you were under five, you’re much more likely to develop an eating disorder age 15. If you get bullied online, you’re much more likely to develop an eating disorder. But we don’t know why an eating disorder appears sometimes and not others. It’s not what we do, and again, what we do know is it’s not a direct line between being sad, hating your body, and developing an eating disorder. That’s not a straight line, because there are lots of people, and in fact, you know, again, great piece of research that that did a that actually looked at people who don’t have an eating disorder and found that more people who didn’t have an eating disorder were dissatisfied with their body than those who did have an eating disorder, mainly because a lot of people with an eating disorder that they interviewed were in recovery, so they had they had lots of support. So there are, if you speak to your average 13-year-old, most will have a level of body dissatisfaction, and sometimes that turns into an eating disorder, and sometimes it doesn’t, and we don’t know why. What we do know is that recovery is always possible at every stage, so it doesn’t matter where we enter, and it doesn’t matter what the causes are on the way in. We know that there are things and treatments that work on the way out, but yeah, it’s it’s tricky. It’s tricky when we were been responding, you know, with the new proposals for banning social media.

Jenny Tomei 32:33
Yeah,

Speaker 1 32:34
it’s really you know we we we this huge piece of consultation with young people, and there wasn’t one young person we spoke to who didn’t say, who didn’t actually say to us, “Yeah, you need to put some more controls in place. It’s the wild west out there, and you know, loads of those, all of them have experienced an eating disorder. There was a really interesting insight from one of them saying, “If you if you go if you want to try and follow recovery accounts, you know positive recovery accounts. The algorithms can’t differentiate between positive stories and disordered eating content. It just sees that your interest in this type of stuff, so it starts serving up some of the toxic stuff. But if you pause in order to report it, if you pause long enough because it takes a few milliseconds to press the this is terrible content, then the algorithm will capture that pause’s interest and then serve you up more, and you’re like, so yeah, no, I mean young people want controls, but at the same time they will say social media causes causes harm, but it’s also the way I found my support group and the people my the people that I that that I have now around me that are my tribe, and trying to balance that. So yeah, the the that was an extraordinarily long answer to the question why why are eating disorders rising? And basically, the short answer to it is, I don’t know. But if there is any way to find out, I’m going to find out.

Jenny Tomei 34:17
No, thank you so much. I kind of with what you said, there’s, you know, there’s so many factors. So and and the, you know, and with the social media side of it, I am speaking in a primary school actually, and last last week, and I asked them their opinion. I just thought, you know what, I’m going to see what they think of this ban, and the students said, well, what am I going to do with my time?

Speaker 1 34:41
Yeah.

Becky Stone 34:41
Wow. That’s

Jenny Tomei 34:42
all. Okay.

Speaker 1 34:46
And and remember, so it was primary school, so none of those should have social media accounts.

Jenny Tomei 34:52
I know, I know. So they’re on it because the teachers tell me that they’re using it.

Speaker 1 34:58
Yeah, absolutely. And and let’s get real, you know, I’m aging myself here terribly, but you know, at school when I was 13 and 14, we used to go and buy Just 17 magazine, and we’re buying it because it was called Just 17, and and you know, this is you know, you’re describing Natural childhood, we we learn from those from from kids who are older than us. So it’s not a surprise they’re aspiring to get on these platforms, and I think we, you know, and I will say, actually, I’ll speak in the eye. I think I think so. My daughter went through some social media at a time when it was just totally new for me. I was trying to learn it alongside her. I didn’t even know some of the platforms existed, and I certainly didn’t know what they did. And yeah, we had to find her. We had to find your, and I think that’s what I’d urge you know parents is is find your own way through it. You’re allowed to have these conversations with your kids. I mean, they won’t love you for it. Well, they will, but it would take an extra 10 years before they tell you that. And and I come out the other side, and I did. I keep it on my phone. I have a message from my daughter that came out of the blue halfway through uni. She sent me a message that said, “We’ve just been learning because she’s very interested in this stuff now. We’ve just been learning about advocacy, parental advocacy for in the mental health and and health space. And said, “I just want to thank you for everything you did. So you know, and I’m, you know, I’m seriously thinking about getting that tattooed. You know, but it’s what what we what we we know is that as parents, there are things we know are are likely to cause harm, and we have to help our our kids navigate it, and with social media, I will say we don’t with read with reading. We don’t hand kids. I don’t know, you know, a an encyclopedia and just say you know crack on. We sit next to them. We we go through picture books. We then graduate them onto to other books, we sound out words with them. We say no; those books aren’t suitable for you. And I think we should do the same with with online spaces, and also be ready to explain it. If they’re ready and old enough to have access to this stuff, you have to be ready to explain what they can see, and one of the things they’re going to see, without question, is some really damaging eating disordered content. Create

Becky Stone 37:48
boundaries, isn’t it? Is that creating a space that they can use the internet to its advantage, but also create safe boundaries with it?

Speaker 1 37:57
Yeah, and and the space because those those kids will find it. If they’re not finding it on their own devices at home, it will be when they do a sleepover at a friend’s house or all of that other stuff. And it’s I I you know I people ask me all the time what’s the one thing I could do as a parent to help prevent the development of eating disorders, and they always think it’s going to be a piece of advice about serving up healthy food, and it never is. My my, I don’t have a magic wand. The only advice I have is speak, is is talk often, not speak often, talk often, and and about the little stuff. Not give your kids lectures about everything, but be genuinely curious and engaged about their life, because that means and share bits of yourself as well. Share the bits that aren’t perfect. Share the bits that you know when you when you messed up a bit, so that when they do or they see something that they find worrying. You’ve already created a bit of a space where it’s the time when you hang out and chat about things. It just makes it a little bit easier for them to tell you when things are tricky.

Jenny Tomei 39:16
That’s amazing. Thank you so much. I think that’s a an amazing end to this podcast. That’s great. Thank you so much for coming on, Vanessa. It’s been I’ve loved this. It’s been a really great podcast. I’m really looking forward to sharing it with everyone. So thank you so much.

Speaker 1 39:34
Well, thank you so much for inviting me. It’s been it’s been good. I’m not sure we we followed any of the the script. Okay,

Jenny Tomei 39:42
no, it was perfect. It was really, really good. Like I think it was great, so it was all good. It

Becky Stone 39:47
it was real, and I think that’s the bit that’s the most important.

Speaker 1 39:51
I think that’s yeah. Oh my god, yeah. If you want, yeah, if you there are plenty, there are plenty of clinicians out there, if. You need a clinician. That’s not. That’s not. That’s not where our parents and our our kids are, is it? Many of them will need a clinician, but they start off with they need just real people to turn to connection. Yeah, brilliant.

Becky Stone 40:15
Thank you so much for listening to the JenUp podcast. Please subscribe and share this podcast so others can benefit. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram at @askjenup and on Jenny’s website at www.jenup.com. If you visit the website, you’ll find a lot of different resources available there. Please like, subscribe, and share.

Jenny Tomei 00:10
Hello everyone, and welcome back to the JenUp podcast. If you’re struggling with an eating disorder and feeling lost, you’ve come to the right place. Both myself and Becky Stone are former sufferers of eating disorders, and we understand the challenges that you’re facing. So join us for inspiring, educational, and relatable content. Whether you’re seeking support, guidance, or just someone who understands, we are here for you. So today, I’m delighted to introduce David Wharton on our podcast. So David Wharton is a consultant counselling psychologist registered with the HCPC. He trained at the University of Northampton and London Metropolitan University, and has got an advanced practitioner diploma in counselling psychology. He has worked in the NHS for over 24 years, including 13 years in a specialist team supporting adults with ADHD, autism, and Tourette syndrome. David has specialist training in neurodevelopmental assessment, and he now works in private practice through Clear Sky Therapies, offering assessment and therapy informed by ACT and CBT. So I’m really delighted to have David on. I’ve wanted him on for a while now. I personally had my ADHD assessment with David, and we’re going to speak about him and his business and what he’s about. So can you tell us a bit about your background, please, David, and how you got into you know private ADHD work.

David Walton 01:44
Yeah, absolutely. Thanks, Jen. Yeah, I like Jen was saying. I’ve I’ve worked in the in the NHS now. Well, I’ve worked in the NHS for a long time, but I left last year partly because I’d I served my time, but also working in that field in the NHS is incredibly challenging at the moment, as a lot of people will be aware of. I’ve had quite a background of different settings. Although I’m a counselling psychologist, I’ve worked in clinical psychology settings throughout my career, alongside mostly clinical psychologists, with the occasional counselling psychologist, also with other psychology professions as well, and I’ve worked across lots of different types of client groups, including learning disabilities, mental health disorders, older adults, and then primarily with neurodevelopmental conditions. So I worked in the the kettering specialist team, the adult ADHD, autism, and Tourette’s team for 13 years, and under a very esteemed and expert in ADHD, Querbas van Rensburg, who is the current president of the UK Adult ADHD Network. So you can a lot of people will be aware of that, and it’s the sort of the main organisation that looks at people with ADHD, adults with ADHD and sort of working with them. So my specialist interest is very much around ND conditions, both ADHD and autism. So I specialise in both those areas, working from kind of 16-year-olds and upwards me, so young adults and adults. Yeah, and I’m very. I’m one of the big things within that is sort of looking at people’s identities because when someone goes through an assessment, there’s a big consideration of who they are. And just today, I was doing a feedback with a young woman, and she’s had quite a lot of thinking and and consideration of her diagnosis because she’s now able to look about life and think about everything that’s happened and and a lot of blame, a lot of shaming for her, but now a lot of challenges in trying to come to terms with that and thinking you know it wasn’t just me being difficult or lazy, or having lots of outbursts and things, but it was partly related to this condition that was never diagnosed before. And she went through a lot of mental health support. She had sort of therapy and individual therapy for probably about three years, more than three years in total, and not one of those specialists, as she was telling me today, ever mentioned the possibility of ADHD being a part of that. And it was a part of that. It wasn’t the entire picture, but it was certainly a major, major aspect.

Becky Stone 04:33
Definitely gets missed a lot with professionals, and I don’t know whether it is because people don’t want to say anything or don’t know enough about it. What did you do?

David Walton 04:42
Yeah, and also think that if you’re in, like, with her, she was in a a group therapy, psychodynamic group therapy sessions where she had two a week for 18 months, very intensive, and their focus would have been on the personality disorder she was diagnosed with. And then later she had dialectical behaviour therapy, which is also a personality disorder focus. So you’d have all those professionals and support people within those roles that would be focusing on her having that condition, and not focusing on her potentially having something else. And she, as many young women do didn’t have the stereotypical presentation of ADHD. Hers was far more sort of emotional regulation, management of her inattention. Because ADHD, whilst it’s very much an inattention focus, is a big factor that people struggle to concentrate is also kind of a regulation of attention issue. It’s the kind of primary thing. So people with ADHD can still focus really, really well in certain sectors and certain certain interests, but regulating that attention in areas where they might find it less stimulating, that’s where it’s much more challenging for them.

Becky Stone 06:03
Yeah, mine was school, definitely school, where I got kicked out of school quite a lot because I can concentrate. But I think girls mask a lot different. Like with my behaviour, you can see mine. I’m like Tigger. I bounce off the walls. Where, like, I’ve got certain females in my family are very quiet. You wouldn’t even pick it up, but their brains racing at 100 miles an hour, and I think with girls it’s harder because they present differently. Yeah,

David Walton 06:28
yeah, it’s often the case. Although I do see the most stereotypical ADHD presentations in some some females as well, but it is it is often the case when it’s how people describe the things they’re struggling with, and one of the things that always occurs to me that is so important is is the way people describe things. Because if someone says I struggle to concentrate, or I don’t know, I’m always interrupting people, then then what do they say about that? Do they say you know interrupting people because what I’ve got to say is more important than they have to listen to it? They don’t intend to say that. They say I’ve got to interrupt them because otherwise my brain’s gone off somewhere else and I’ll forget what I was going to say. And if they stay in the conversation, they don’t hear a word of it because they’re trying to hang on to their thought.

Becky Stone 07:19
I’m laughing my head off. That’s so me. It’s just like, oh, I need to tell you now. But I’ve always been shamed that I was rude, or I’m interrupting, or like it’s all about me, and I don’t mean it to be. It’s innocent. There’s no malice in me. But it’s like I’ve got to tell you now, and people get loads of random text messages off me now because I just give them the bits so I don’t forget. Oh, so

David Walton 07:45
my little cheat for that is to say, in the middle of a conversation, if you’ve got something you want to jump in with, it’s just to jump in and say, I don’t mean to interrupt, but remind me to tell you about sharks. Carry on, and then let the person carry on, and then they’ll come back at the end of the conversation and say, sorry, what were you going to say about sharks, or whatever it was, and then you’ve got a little, a little note to just remind you, you know, a little, a little help to remind you what you’re going to say.

Jenny Tomei 08:08
That’s good. I use a Trello board; it’s game changer for me. Everything that I don’t forget, anything that comes in, I write it down on the board. That comes into my brain. I just get it out, write it down immediately, so I don’t forget it. Well,

David Walton 08:24
one of one of the names in the ADHD world is a lady called Mary Solanto, and and she says that if you don’t write it down, it doesn’t exist because it’s just vanished.

Jenny Tomei 08:37
Yeah, because you just forget about it. Yeah, yeah. And when school, I was very um. So Becky, you were saying you had classes like naughty in school. I was very quiet, like very reserved, very like within myself. So was someone who just got down my head down, kind of. So was wasn’t picked up at all in school. So it’s interesting how it how we how obviously Beck and I are different in that way as well. So yeah,

Becky Stone 09:12
I spotted it in Jen because my even though my behaviour is different, the exercise, the eating disorder, the racing brains are very very similar. We both accidentally talk over each other. We can both burn each other out, so we can’t spend. We spend lots of time together, and then just can’t spend any time together because we exhaust each other. So it’s been able to manage that within that friendship as well.

David Walton 09:36
It is so important that that other people can learn to accept that. I know somebody that you guys has to interrupt, has to get their bid in, but their partner absolutely hates people that interrupt and stop them mid-flow. So it’s really difficult because you’ve got one person that’s their way of working, another person that they can’t stop their way of working, and trying to find a kind of medium within that to have. A strategy where you can do something that can help both parties to understand and accept the other person is really key. So, in relationships, you know, I’ve had clients come in with their partner, and their partner is beside themselves with frustration over some of these traits. So, I really try to impress on them that post diagnosis, in addition to the person potentially learning strategies to manage their issues better, where where they want to kind of improve those and work on those, their partner can have a really important job in trying to support and accept that that better as well.

Becky Stone 10:37
Yeah, and also like what I noticed, like with my friends around me, is like we went to London one day. One of them’s got my suitcase. One’s holding my coffee. One’s giving me donations. One one’s keeping tabs on me. One’s got food in their pocket. And my friend said, “Are you watching all of your friends? And I’m like, “Why? And they go, “Look round. They’ve all got your stuff.

Jenny Tomei 11:00
You’re the personal butler.

Becky Stone 11:04
I I don’t pay any attention, but I’ve got people in my life who guide me and manage me, and like professionally, I’m really on it. I’m like really organised, but behind the scenes, when I don’t have to focus as much, I’ve got people who sort of catch me. But of course I’m used to it. I don’t notice

David Walton 11:22
it. I think we call that scaffolding, and that happens. So sometimes you get get kids that that, or you know, young adults maybe that, or even adults that they’ve managed through school, and then you hear the stories of how their parents scaffolded their stuff and made sure they had all their kit for school and made sure they did the homework and put everything in place. So you talk to them and they say, “Yeah, I did all my homework. Yeah, I was always on school on time. Yes, I always had my uniform correct and all my all my gear. But then the poor mum or dad was running around like a blast fly trying to make sure that happened. But teachers don’t see that; they just see the child coming into school with their homework and managing those things. They don’t see the exhausted parents,

Becky Stone 12:09
who are most probably neurodivergent themselves.

David Walton 12:12
In many many cases, the amount of assessments I’ve done where either the person’s come because someone they know, including possibly their own child, has been diagnosed and they’ve sat through that process and learnt about themselves. You know, hearing lots of things. That’s me. I did that. I did that at school. Or, or sometimes it’s where they they come. I can’t think of what we’re going to say. Then sorry, it’s gone. It’ll come back.

Becky Stone 12:40
But I think that’s like what I was sort of sharing at the beginning. It’s like where I can see it coming through my family now, and where I’ve got diagnosed, I can see my guys are getting well talking about diagnosis and understanding themselves. But the more behaviours that I’m talking about, I trigger my guys as well. So even though they’ve found coping strategies around things like I wasn’t very good with money, so both of my two are very good with money. Like I’m incredibly untidy. I don’t mean to be. My two are very very tidy. So I always say I’ve traumatised my children, but there’s some good bits that go with it. But also they’ve found coping strategies to go against my overwhelm to find it more copeable for them. So, but they’re they’re very much very similar to me in their brains. Are very very quick on their feet.

David Walton 13:34
Yeah, and sometimes people’s symptoms actually manifest in in the amount of work they do under the surface to manage it. So some people are really exhausted trying to manage their symptoms. It’s a bit like the the duck or the swan on the pond with the you know the feet paddling like crazy underneath. It looks serene and they look great on the water, but you don’t know what’s happening underneath. So some people, when you’re going through the symptoms, you’re realising that yes, okay, they don’t forget anything, and they always turn up to appointments on time. But that’s because they put so many things in place, or they’ve got other people they recruit into that process. Well, now we’ve got all this amazing technology through phones and things. You know, I mean, I have so many reminders on my phone to take my medication, to take to do my meditation, to you know do this exercise to go to bed at this time or whatever it may be. So loads of little reminders that we can have always there, and there’s lots of great apps out there as well.

Becky Stone 14:30
Yeah, Alexa is amazing. Like this morning, I put croissants on for my grandson, but I was so busy. I went, Alexa, can you tell my daughter that the croissants need to be cooked within 25 minutes? Can you tell her that she has to get them out the oven? She walks through the front door. I give her a quick kiss, and I’m like, right, I’ve got to start wet now. See you later. Forgot to tell her about the croissants in the oven, but luckily Alexa had already done that, so. There was part of me brain dumping already to protect myself, and then she was like, “Mum, you stuck them in the wrong oven. They got burnt.

Jenny Tomei 15:10
Oh, that’s funny.

Becky Stone 15:12
I tried, like it, but it. I think technology is amazing. It’s just Alexa’s. I think are really good because you can just get make sure those reminders go on as and when your brain is thinking about

David Walton 15:25
it. No, definitely, definitely. Don’t don’t think I’ll do that in a minute. I’ll set that timer in a minute. I’ll set that reminder in a minute. Just just do it straight away.

Becky Stone 15:34
It never happens.

David Walton 15:35
Yeah.

Jenny Tomei 15:39
Just going back to the assessment part. Obviously, we know that there’s a waiting list for you know ADHD, and it differs to which area you’re in. I think it would be good for like listeners to like understand like how private sort of assessments, especially yourself, David, like how you how you’re different to the NHS. Obviously, you work the NHS, you come away from that, like kind of what makes you different, and what are the benefits of a private assessment? Because you know they’re they’re not cheap. No,

David Walton 16:10
absolutely. I mean they vary in price massively. Sometimes the price variance doesn’t tally with the quality. You know I’ve known some companies that are charging sort of 15, 1600 pounds for an ADHD assessment, and one’s doing a much better assessment than the other, a much better sort of process. I’d say that with myself, because I was in the team run by someone that was so expert around ADHD, and then his his second in command is really specialist in autism, that they instilled in me very high quality expectations for all my assessments, NHS as well. But I had a set time of two hours, so I’d have to sit down with someone, run through the assessment in two hours, and feedback the assessment outcome in that time. And now my assessments are longer because I have more time, so my assessments tend to last around about three hours, maybe a little less. I always incorporate a psychometric test of attention, which we used to do in the NHS, but then when COVID hit, we couldn’t do it because they were face to face. The psychometric bit had to be done face to face, and then when COVID went away, they decided not to continue doing the the test because it was it was a time saver. One thing in the NHS, so I mean to be fair, they are quite similar, but I just have more time and space. And but I always incorporate a screening process as well, because when you first meet somebody, like I saw a young man today. He didn’t. He had a very complex profile, and ADHD and autism had some possible traits that were available, but that were evident. But but he had lots of other factors, like he had massive family trauma, parental alcoholism, and various levels of abuse and things, and so there were lots of differential factors that you couldn’t exclude. So the screening basically allowed me to say, yeah, these conditions could be there, but it’s highly possible that other things explain the difficulties as well, so it means that I sort of get to the end and say we could go ahead with an ADHD assessment, maybe, but there’s a possibility that he wouldn’t meet that criteria because other factors could be explaining his his issues, and I felt actually the best way forwards was for him to have trauma therapy, which fortunately I’m hoping he’s about to engage with, and then once that’s sort of happening and underway, potentially we’ll have a clearer picture. So having that that more space is really important. The variety, like I say, in private assessments, and I’ll include the right to choose stuff there because it’s effectively a private assessment, even though it’s being paid for by the NHS. Is there’s just such a disparity? I’ve seen assessment processes. So the guy today, his brother was there. His brother’s much older than him, and he had a right to choose assessment through the NHS not that long ago. He said he did all the pre-screening stuff through paper forms, so so not not meeting an actual person, being assessed by an actual person. His assessment was 20 to 30 minutes.

Speaker 1 19:33
Whoa, that’s all he

David Walton 19:34
had time-wise to speak to the professional that was actually diagnosing him. So he’s now come out of that process, and he thinks he’s got a false positive diagnosis. He doesn’t think he’s actually got ADHD. He he did say to me, “What do you think? And I said, “Well, I’ve just got to say you’re not here for me to assess you. You’re here as supporting your brother, so I I can’t assess you. I can’t tell you what.” Whether or not you could have ADHD, but I will say, throughout this process so far, we’ve been talking for about an hour. You have interrupted me and asked constantly. You have filled all the silences, and you you have talked a lot. So these are potentially indicators that could suggest relevance to your your diagnosed ADHD, but I would never, as I stress strongly to him, never say you’ve got ADHD because I’d only spoken to him for that short period of time and not with the focus on him. But there was stuff that suggesting it was the case. But that kind of thing really troubles me, and that’s something that’s being funded through the NHS. So if those things are happening by these companies that have got contracts through the NHS, because you need to have a contract with the NHS on some level to qualify to offer right to choose assessments, and if if that’s the kind of quality that can happen, and I’ve seen such terrible examples of reports. I mean, my report that I sent you, Jenny, Jen, is you know, how did that sort of feel in terms of explaining things and making things clear?

Jenny Tomei 21:14
Yeah, it was very detailed. Yeah, it was very detailed report. I had to read it in chunks because yeah, it was very detailed. So I mean, I got a lot from it. So and you went into everything like my history, especially with the the hormone side of it. When I spoke about the the PMDD and stuff like that, and things that I struggled with there, and we talked about that and the history of the adorexia and everything, and the the exercise addiction. So I felt like it. I felt like you went into a lot of detail, and the report that I got was great. And my our assessment, the assessment that I had with you was definitely not half an hour. So I’m really shocked by that because aren’t the isn’t there any sort of quality control that the NHS should be doing like over these private companies that are off, you know, either offering these assessments.

David Walton 22:03
It’s really concerning because, I mean, technically, you can have a contract with the NHS to offer a physical health support for a physical health condition, and then if your company then starts doing ADHD assessments, because you’ve already got a contract with the NHS to be a provider for them, you can automatically then offer your ADHD assessments as well through Right to Choose because you have a you have a contract, and you need to be CQC registered as well. So there is some governing governing body over it, and GPs are more inclined to use companies that have CQC because they can then complain, and then the CQC can investigate. But when I was still in the team in in Kettering in Northamptonshire, we used to review the private reports that came in. A lot of them were just private assessments; they weren’t right to choose because the the trust at the time weren’t accepting that many right to choose through the GPs. We were rejecting half of them. Half the reports were just so poor we couldn’t tell from the report if it had been a good assessment. You know, some companies. If you were to, I may have mentioned it during your assessment, but the the Panorama program that was on a few years back, the false diagnosis, false diagnosis, the ADHD scandal, which I think got renamed after that. I’m not quite sure what it’s called now because some of the companies have got their lawyers involved. That they they showed various companies that were very much under scrutiny, and I won’t mention the names, but they they were basically shown that that those companies were doing very very the the phrase sounds awful, but quick and dirty assessments. So within an hour, 50 minutes an hour, they were just doing the whole assessment. And one of those companies, I saw their reports regularly. It’s a company that’s recently sold themselves for 20 million pounds, and and their assessments comprise of less than three pages of of which one only one page had information specific to that that client. The rest of it was just their standard information. It’s really

Becky Stone 24:10
interesting because I had a really the lady who diagnosed me. I was really impressed with really thorough. Asked me lots of questions. Had even though I was quite upset at the end of it because you ask so many questions. It brings up a lot of emotions, and she held me really well from like being a therapist and then having all these questions. Absolute lots of respect to her. She held me very well and got diagnosed. But I’ve got clients who’ve gone through diagnoses, and their experience has been horrific to the point that, like, not a lot shuts me up. That I’m actually jaw dropped, and then having to do the trauma work from the trauma

Speaker 1 24:54
that

Becky Stone 24:55
they’ve reactivated, and luckily they’ve. Had enough courage to put complaint in and push through and push it back and get some more support put in place, but it like it was a bit of an eye opener because like when you go through that process, you’re trusting whoever’s diagnosing. This is your life.

David Walton 25:16
No, absolutely. And when when I do my when I do my feedbacks, I always leave the feedback for a separate day. So I give the person a week or two to. If if it’s quite a clear case, I’ll tell them straight away that they meet the criteria, but very briefly, and then we have a feed a proper feedback a week or two later, maybe a little bit longer, so we can discuss it in more detail and give people the time. You know, the feedback I did today was 80 minutes because she was very chatty young woman, and and that’s the kind of time that she needed to go through it. And I always encourage people to come back again, maybe have another discussion, which once people had time to let things sink in, because it’s very much like, and you’ll find this on the internet quite a lot. But it’s very much like going through a grieving process, that you have all that kind of disbelief and that uncertainty about things and trying to make sense of things. And there’s a really interesting model, a model of grieving that I found more recently. It’s called the meaning making model, and it’s this concept that whenever a big event happens in life, and it could be a diagnosis, it could be a bereavement, that you have the kind of global expectation of what’s going to happen because of that thing, and then you have the real life experience of what you actually experience, and there’s there’s a gap between the two, and you have to make sense of that, so you might expect your diagnosis is going to make you feel a certain way, and then the reality is it often doesn’t make you feel as you expected, because people expect it to make them feel positive, and often there’s some negative stuff that comes along, some challenging stuff that comes along, and then you have to kind of make sense of the two, and then journey through that process to hopefully come to a better sense of your own identity, who you are as a person, who you were, who you are, who you’re going to be moving forwards, to try and accept that person you always were into your life, and because in some cases, some of those things that other people might find quite frustrating, and the individual might find frustrating are part of who they are. You know, you’re sort of about overthinking. You know, and I know I’m an overthinker massively, and I’ve I’ve accepted that. So I know that I will always think far too much about things. It’s just part of my part of my makeup. And now I’ve kind of made peace with that. It’s much easier to to go through life with that.

Becky Stone 27:43
I think peace is a good word because when I got when they said to me that I had it, I felt abs. I cried just with relief, not with anything else, just relief. And then I rang my daughter up. I went, babe, guess what? I’m a weirdo. She went, Mum. We already knew you were weird, but the just being able to have an answer and have that relief was massive, and actually for me, it’s boosted my confidence more than anything. Because instead of thinking there was something wrong with me, like I know I’m laughing, sounding a bit of a weirdo, but I can actually find peace in that relief now. That wow, there’s an answer, and that for me was just what I needed more than anything. But then I know other people really grieve it, and it’s painful. And why didn’t it get spotted? And like I don’t know if I want this. So there’s a lot of like a that grieving process that goes with it.

David Walton 28:39
Yeah, and then other people sometimes turn around and you know sort of say, “Oh, this is explains this this feature, and and they might say, “Well, everyone does that. Everyone interrupts, or everyone forgets things. Because at the end of the day, all of the symptoms of ADHD, pretty much everyone has experienced them at some point. Everyone has forgotten something, or you know, been disorganised, or talked over somebody, or being fidgety, or whatever-you know-all the different symptoms. They’re they’re they’re things we can all understand, but it’s the intensity and the frequency and the impact of of how they they are on people who have ADHD, which is much more more different. You know, much more significant. One

Becky Stone 29:21
of the biggest things I think the relief was when I go. I don’t know if anyone else does it. I I get really overwhelmed in a supermarket, and I go in and I got my trolley ready and I got all good intent. I get so overwhelmed, and I just stand there, and I get to the banana aisle. I just stand there, and I’m like, I can’t move. Like, and I think just going supermarket shopping should just be an easy thing to do. I really struggle with it. Even talking about it makes my hands go cold. But the frustration of the things that I should be able to do, being able to go, do you know what? It’s okay. I struggle with that. So how can I find find a way round it now instead of putting. The pressure on having that diagnosis maybe go ah okay I’ll go to the cash and carry and get it all done in one bulk and I don’t have to go shopping anymore.

David Walton 30:13
And and you’re touching on something potentially that that is is very key to ADHD is is the the executive functioning

Becky Stone 30:19
yeah

David Walton 30:20
issues because all that planning and sequencing and learning from mistakes and you know managing errors and things like that you know and task initiation and all those things and and there’s a lot of terms on the internet that sort of pop up they’re not diagnostic but they’re they’re very common and people relate to them who have ADHD and task paralysis decision paralysis is one of the things that you might be alluding to there, where there’s there’s so much to to to factor in and to to make decisions about that it it becomes paralyzing. It becomes very difficult to actually take that first step forwards.

Becky Stone 30:54
Yeah, and decision making. Like my guys would say to me, “What do you want for dinner? And I’ve come in. I’ve done a whole day of working and thinking, and they come in and they go, “What do you want for dinner? And I just stand there, and I’m like, “I don’t know. And then one of my guys go, “Mum, I put jacket potato in the ovens, beans and cheese. Not that even really fancied it, but I didn’t have to make a decision because it got done for me. I was like, “Oh, thank you so much. But just having support put in place, I think, is really good.

David Walton 31:22
Yeah, yeah, and it sounds like you’ve you’ve been very open about it. So being able to to be honest about it, and and then other people can accept that and and know that that’s just a part of it. So yeah.

Becky Stone 31:35
Do you find a lot of your people get diagnosed if like there’s a lot of hidden stuff, so they’re not. I know I’m very open about it, but very hidden that they don’t want to stand out.

David Walton 31:48
Yeah, yeah, no, absolutely. Some people, I think, within the obviously the focus today is more on ADHD, but within the autism world, there’s a lot of that kind of stuff that that people try to hide their differences. They don’t want to make it obvious, but yeah, there is. You know, we touched on before. There’s a lot of shame around these things that that people see themselves as different and not coping. They see, you know, and and when people get diagnoses or when things get identified, they can say, “Well, I’m, you know, I realise I’m not broken. Realise I’m not, I’m not mad. I’m not weird. I just have this this different brain that works in a in a slightly different way, and and that’s okay. And and and yes, people talk about ND conditions being sort of superpowers, and there are aspects of it that are really positive. And I’m really conscious when I do assessments, that there’s a big focus on negatives. You know, whilst it’s great to be neurofirmative and supportive and accepting of of ND differences, the assessment needs to identify problems because without there being a significant problem, that person may not meet the criteria, may not meet the clinical criteria, so it’s not it’s not an easy process to go through hearing you know and and mentioning about how we struggle how people struggle. Is that

Speaker 1 33:10
easy? Oh,

Becky Stone 33:10
go on, sorry, Jen.

Jenny Tomei 33:12
Got no, sorry. I was just going to ask about the assessment process, kind of because I know you talked about it a lot. I’m just going to flip back to that, if that’s okay, because I think I really want listeners to take away, like, kind of from that about what do they actually need to look out for? Because as you said, there’s lots of low cost companies offering ADHD assessments out there. So how can you tell what’s the good assessment versus the bad assessment? I think just just giving clarity for that for people would be really good.

David Walton 33:45
Well, it’s probably easiest to highlight that the most commonly used assessment tool for ADHD assessments, which my assessments cover everything that’s in this this tool. It’s called the Diva, the Diva version five. Is it version five or is it DSM-5 related? Yeah, probably DSM-5 related, and it is a sort of symptom checklist that runs through all the symptoms of ADHD and looks at whether the person presented with those those things in childhood, and then in adulthood as well. If you’re assessing an adult, on the front of the diva form, it says this assessment takes 90 about 90 minutes to do, but must also sit within a wider psychiatric assessment. So the psychiatric assessment will then include mental health, risk, physical health, and all the the potential differential explanations for those difficulties the person may have. It’ll try and look into their their development, and I always look at education because if you’re not looking through someone’s education and how they got in school and everything, then you’re missing something massive. I use my assessments based on more. Assessment called the Browns, but like I said, if you if you imagine the diva that’s being used is a symptom checklist, but if you’re not doing the other stuff, you’re not you know you’re not giving it that foundation. So if 90 minutes is is enough for just that, then how are you going to do an assessment in less than about two to two and a half hours? So if an assessment is less than two hours, you’ve got a question: Why is it so short? Why is it so quick? So, yeah, that’s and and I do think a screening process is really really important. It isn’t always offered, and sometimes it’s offered in a different format where people submit information, and then they’re kind of screened through that. That can be that can be a reasonable way, but it means that there’s a greater chance of people who identify with ADHD going forward to an assessment where they they will then not get a diagnosis. Whereas I I tend to rarely not diagnose someone because I’ve screened them out early on. If someone’s not going to get a diagnosis, I’ll tell them at that early stage, the screening information does not indicate the likelihood you’re going to meet the criteria, and I’ll only encourage people to go forwards with assessment if there’s a reasonable likelihood or a better likelihood. So that’s really important, and and that assessment process needs to cover lots of areas because ADHD needs to be evident in more than one area of a person’s life because it needs to. It is something that affects pretty much all the areas of life. So when someone, when a child is having major problems at home, but school they’re fine. Then it’s got to be a question as to whether it’s more the home management of that child. So generally, what I find and what most assessors find is that ADHD occurs everywhere. There might be some areas where a person manages better. So someone might be massively passionate about a certain area of their life, like sport or something like that, and they do brilliantly there. But then, in their day-to-day life, managing at home really poor. In their relationships, there might be big issues. In any education or work, there might be significant issues as well, depending on what strategies they put in place to manage it. So, so it’s it’s kind of looking around that person’s life and not just at the where they tick the symptoms, and as I said earlier, it’s how they say that they they meet the symptoms, you know, and how significant the the problems are related to that.

Becky Stone 37:37
So really, it’s that

David Walton 37:38
it’s that in depth exploration that’s really really vital.

Jenny Tomei 37:42
And what what can you sort of? I mean, I’m just sort of trying to put myself in someone else’s shoes here. Shoes here. If I saw an if I saw an assessment, I thought I was cheaper than that one. Just go for the cheaper one. How can we sort of disc? How can we sort of discourage people from doing that? Like,

David Walton 37:58
it’s difficult, really. You know, I’d I’d want to. I mean, I can look on websites for companies, and I can see what they say they’re offering. They don’t they don’t often say how long it takes them to do the assessment, but they really in their in their frequently asked questions, it should really say how long things are. And I would encourage people to contact the company and actually say how long is your assessment? You know how how much are you actually doing? Because if they’re saying, “Oh, we have an hour long call, then that’s that big question of is that enough?

Jenny Tomei 38:31
Okay. The

David Walton 38:32
problem is that some of the right to choose companies that are out there. That’s that may be all that they’re they’re being offered, but every every person who contacts their GP and gets accepted to Right to Choose Pathway is able to pick any company that is on a national Right to Choose list. If their if their GP says we we have these two companies, that’s not true, because any any company that has a any English company because obviously it’s different in Wales and and Scotland. Any English company that has a contract with the NHS can effectively be used if they’re remote as well. Then they don’t need to be local to you.

Jenny Tomei 39:15
Right. Okay. So so

David Walton 39:16
I would advise people to to look on the internet and actually weigh different companies up and see see what kind of feedback they get, what kind of reviews they get, and and what their process

Jenny Tomei 39:30
is. Okay, no, that’s so useful because I didn’t even know that was happening, so I didn’t know about the rights to use either. Like, kind of, I didn’t know about that. So I think that’s really helpful for people. And do you provide full online assessments, or is it do you do fully online, or is it face to face? I

David Walton 39:45
can do. I prefer to see people in person. I can’t do my test of attention online, unfortunately. It is a test. But there are there are other kind of tests that that can be used. There’s companies that offer, I think. Called a QB test, which sadly it’s not under nice guidance indicated for adults. It’s only indicated for children because the research just isn’t statistically strong enough for adults. And I find that the test I use, which is called the test of everyday attention, again, it’s not a perfect test, but it’s me administering it and me observing and knowing what kind of things to look for, the way the person performs it. Sometimes the scores are less valuable than how the person does. You know, I had a guy that scored every every score was at the top, but he talked constantly, non stop through. He fidgeted constantly, non stop through it. He was all over the place with his checking things on on on pages. You know, but he just sawed through it because he was so quick. He made loads of mistakes, but because he was so fast, his score was high, and it was it was so. It’s those kind of things that are more important, and and again, in the assessment, it’s really vital to see how somebody behaves. If you’re doing an online assessment, then you know because we can see the top part of it of each other. But what are they doing under the surface, under the waterline? What are they doing there? And I’ll often sort of say to people, while we’ve been talking, is there anything going on there? And they might be playing with the fiddle toy. They might be taking notes, scribbling, doodling. They might their leg might be going up and down, but you can’t necessarily see it. That

Jenny Tomei 41:28
is okay. That is so interesting. I think is there anything before we sort of wrap things up, Becky? Is anything that you want to ask? Like any final sort of question?

Becky Stone 41:40
No, I think it. I think people to use their initiative looking when they’re redoing the research before you get your assessment, like your ADHD. But I think private assessment is a really good way to go because if you got like a quicker waiting time than how, like mine took eight months, 10 months on the right to choose. How quickly would you get somebody in from start to finish?

David Walton 42:10
Because the the landscape of referrals seems to have changed in the last six months, and I think there there’s been an increase in companies offering assessments just through LinkedIn recently. I’ve had three different companies approach me, offering me what would constitute as four hours of my my kind of hourly rate down to three hours, and the last one I saw was just over one hour of my hourly rate, and asking whether I’d be interested in doing an assessment for that. So that kind of increases as has gone up. Consider what was the original question you asked? Sorry.

Becky Stone 42:49
Just how long? Like, say, if somebody came privately and then just got in touch with you, how quickly would you see? For me, at the

David Walton 42:56
moment, because it has been quiet, then it’s it’s very quick, literally literally weeks. An ADHD assessment. So, I if I did a screening, I could I could book someone in within the next next few weeks. I could do the assessment straight after that, pretty much again within just weeks. And it’s got a bit quieter. We have times when it gets busier, but I think because there’s so many more companies offering these assessments, and like I say, the ones that contacted me through LinkedIn, clearly they’re quite concerning because the last one that was so very cheap was actually looking for nurse prescribers, and they were offering a one and a half hour assessment, and that would be the entire assessment, but they’re wanting a nurse prescriber with with only six months experience minimum.

Jenny Tomei 43:44
Wow, that’s mental.

David Walton 43:46
Yeah, I would be very much questioning what ability that person would be would have to be able to differentiate mental health and autism. Autism is massively crossing over with ADHD. If you don’t know how to identify and potentially assess autism. You shouldn’t really be doing ADHD assessments because you need to know what autism looks like and what it sounds like in the way people describe it to be able to say that’s not autism, that’s ADHD. People with autism do everything that people with ADHD do quite often. You know, people with autism interrupt constantly, but they don’t interrupt because they’ll forget it. They interrupt because what because they’re so sort of single-minded and one-sided in their conversations, they don’t really know the other person’s going to be talked over, and they don’t really think about it because they’re they’re not considering the other person. I’m not I’m not saying this with all autistic people, but their their difficulties with empathy and seeing things from another person’s perspective often means they don’t realise they’ve done it.

Becky Stone 44:48
Yeah, it’s one one. My grandson’s autistic, and it’s very much you’ve got. He doesn’t mean any manners by it, but you’ve got to do what he’s doing because you’ve got to follow his train of thought and like my. Train of thought doesn’t work with his. It’s it’s his way.

David Walton 45:04
Yeah, yeah. Because people with autism generally have a more difficulty with a thing called theory of mind, which is understanding the thoughts and feelings of another person being different to their own. Yeah. Yeah. If we watch things like The Big Bang Theory and watch Sheldon things, he’s frequently saying things that you know, it’s like when he completely spoils a whole book series or a film series because he just gives the the final outcome because he knows it. So he just assumes that’s fine because if he knows it, then it doesn’t matter if if other people don’t.

Jenny Tomei 45:37
Love Big Bang Theory, and so where can people go then, David? Before we wrap things up, to sort of see what you offer and what’s your website and socials, if you have them.

David Walton 45:51
Yeah, I mean, I I am on LinkedIn, but the main the main sort of area that I have information is my website, which is which is clearskytherapies.co.uk. I also have a not anywhere near as good as yourself, Jen, but I have a blog on there that I’m trying to update more regularly to try and cover cover topics. If anyone ever wants to give me any ideas for blogs that they want covering, I’m more than happy to to add those because it is important to get information out there,

Becky Stone 46:22
yeah,

David Walton 46:22
absolutely. You know, because people people need to know.

Jenny Tomei 46:28
Definitely, it’s been amazing to have you on. I think that this is such an eye opener. I think for both myself and Becky, and hopefully for anyone sort of listening to this, and just really want to thank you for coming on and sharing your knowledge, I really appreciate it.

David Walton 46:43
You’re more than welcome. Thank you very much for having me.

Becky Stone 46:46
Thank you so much for listening to the JenUp podcast. Please subscribe and share this podcast so others can benefit. You can find us on Facebook and Instagram at @askjenup on Jenny’s website at www.jenup.com. If you visit the website, you’ll find lots of different resources available there. Please like, subscribe, and share.

[jenny_tomei]: hello and welcome to the jenup podcast i am jenny tomei I’m a qualified nutritional thearpist

[jenny_tomei]: and personal trainer. We have Sam Woodfield who is my

[jenny_tomei]: new co host. He is ex elite cyclist has recovered from an anorexia and orthorexia

[jenny_tomei]: we have launched a brand new series of podcast focusing on all things sporting performance and mental health

[jenny_tomei]: physical health and eating disorders so you want to ask

[jenny_tomei]: us anything you can find us a asking up on facebook and on instagram hand

[jenny_tomei]: you over to sam who is my new co host for the Jenup podcast

[sam]: so today with a huge amount of pleasure we have Renee McGregor with us who was

[sam]: actually at the forefront of my recovery during the years of two thousand seventeen and

[sam]: two thous eighteen and worked perfectly alongside my coach who i still speak with today

[sam]: at least later and it’s great to have on board Renee’s a leading sports dietician

[sam]: specializing eating disorders, reds, the athlete health and performance alongside the female athlete rid her

[sam]: practice and knowledge is supported by expensive extensive experience of working both clinical and performance

[sam]: nutrition including working on olympic games par olympic games and the commonwealth games and there’s

[sam]: published five amazing books so far with her most recent publication called more fuel you

[sam]: which will be giving away after this podcast so stay tuned

[renee_mcgregor]: oh

[sam]: to find out more at the end of how you can win a copy of

[sam]: renee’s book so the title of today is renee why are so many amateur athletes

[sam]: to copy how professionals live and train and what are the dangers to their health

[sam]: um something obviously when we worked together you picked up for me straight away so

[sam]: is something that you know i’ve experienced trying

[renee_mcgregor]: so

[sam]: to live like a professional without being professional but sing that goal so just a

[sam]: very brief kind of start to this podcast why why do you think so many

[sam]: people are doing it and what are the kind of without before we go into

[sam]: further data what are kind of the very implications of behaving like a professional as

[sam]: an amateur whether full time career may be a family and not having that full

[sam]: support network or even understanding behind you

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: uh well firstly thank you for having me on the podcast i think

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: it’s a very big question

[sam]: ye

[renee_mcgregor]: i’m just trying to work out where

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: to start with it

[jenny_tomei]: yah

[renee_mcgregor]: because

[sam]: we are going to break it

[jenny_tomei]: it

[sam]: down

[jenny_tomei]: is a big

[renee_mcgregor]: i

[jenny_tomei]: person

[renee_mcgregor]: guess

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah i guess i suppose i suppose the question is why do we all strive

[renee_mcgregor]: to be athletes is it about being an athlete that is so important to us

[renee_mcgregor]: and why does it why is it something we strive for and what does it

[renee_mcgregor]: mean in terms of why can’t we get that within ourselves from other places it’s

[renee_mcgregor]: kind of like a very broad over view we’ve always had recreational athletes we’ve always

[renee_mcgregor]: had individuals who compete you know the weekends and evenings and you club club level

[renee_mcgregor]: athletes and that’s always been the case book it’s interesting that probably since the advent

[renee_mcgregor]: of social media where we have access to people twenty seven that it feels like

[renee_mcgregor]: individuals not able to manage their expectations as well and strive to be something that

[renee_mcgregor]: is deemed as idealistic is kind of i suppose where i would start with this

[renee_mcgregor]: question and obviously then if we are all being achievement focused if we’re focusing on

[renee_mcgregor]: the outcome of we have to be the very best version of ourselves all the

[renee_mcgregor]: time um m then

[renee_mcgregor]: it will lead to dis functional behaviors fundamentally because you know humans hard wired to

[renee_mcgregor]: avoid discomfort and you know when you’re looking at all these images constantly and you’re

[renee_mcgregor]: focusing on well you know i’m only either taken seriously or it’s my identity or

[renee_mcgregor]: is how i attain worth or whatever it might be why the reason is that

[renee_mcgregor]: you need to be at the top of the game within your sport then understandably

[renee_mcgregor]: when you maybe aren’t achieving that or you don’t seem to be achieving it in

[renee_mcgregor]: your mind you don’t perceive to be achieving that and it’s a really important word

[renee_mcgregor]: that perceive then you’re going to feel uncomfortable and humans don’t like discomfort they don’t

[renee_mcgregor]: like the feelings of not being good enough or you know feelings of criticism or

[renee_mcgregor]: feelings of abandonment or rejection

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: and we find means and ways of removing ourselves from those situations and so we

[renee_mcgregor]: kind of think okay well i’ll just push even harder because actually when you’re training

[renee_mcgregor]: or when you’re fixating on a body composition or when you’re fixing on food you’re

[renee_mcgregor]: basically finding a method of

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: think what’s really going on in

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: you know the ground scheme of things so i’m not sure i’ve answered your question

[renee_mcgregor]: specifically but i think

[sam]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: fundamentally m

[renee_mcgregor]: i think social media contributes to this constant feeling of unworthiness

[jenny_tomei]: and

[renee_mcgregor]: and this sense of if you think about instagram tik tok or whatever it’s almost

[renee_mcgregor]: like every individual has an account has their own they’re basically promoting their own brand

[renee_mcgregor]: you know that’s what you’re promoting and with that comes a sense of identity and

[renee_mcgregor]: everybody wants to feel like they are the best you know they are i think

[renee_mcgregor]: what i get frustrated with a social media is that it’s become a platform for

[renee_mcgregor]: people to kind of demonstrate how extreme they are

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: and

[jenny_tomei]: ah

[renee_mcgregor]: that then also leads to disingenuity and and more and more sensational posts and more

[renee_mcgregor]: and more sensational

[sam]: yes

[renee_mcgregor]: stories that are not needed but yet they’re there on in a way you’re perpetuating

[renee_mcgregor]: that same message the message that you are uncomfortable and trying to achieve something by

[renee_mcgregor]: being that personal social media then perpetuating that for other vulnerable individuals who are seeing

[renee_mcgregor]: it which is why i have an absolute love hate relations hip with social media

[renee_mcgregor]: and i think the biggest point which i’ve

[jenny_tomei]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: kind of seemed to have missed until now is that obviously most of these individuals

[renee_mcgregor]: that talking about will be a certain type of personality you know there will be

[renee_mcgregor]: this kind of type a personality were they are always striving they are incredibly determined

[renee_mcgregor]: incredibly motivated perfectionism will have kicked in at some point you know sometimes we borne

[renee_mcgregor]: perfections and sometimes we’re not and i think that’s an important thing to discuss

[renee_mcgregor]: sometimes perfection develops as a meth of trying to attain worth so

[jenny_tomei]: my

[renee_mcgregor]: it’s a complicated picture it’s not as simple as

[jenny_tomei]: not

[renee_mcgregor]: i want to be the best going to do this it’s actually very very complicated

[renee_mcgregor]: and i think one of the things that frustrates me the most is lack of

[renee_mcgregor]: self awareness we teach younger generations like if we all had much more awareness of

[renee_mcgregor]: our personalities if we all had much more awareness of our behaviors than actually perhaps

[renee_mcgregor]: we could manage them better and we wouldn’t lead i wouldn’t lead to this high

[renee_mcgregor]: number of individuals with mental illness

[jenny_tomei]: i

[sam]: and that’s

[jenny_tomei]: firmly

[sam]: basically

[jenny_tomei]: believe

[sam]: what

[jenny_tomei]: that

[sam]: we had to battle for

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[sam]: as a two and a half

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[sam]: year battle

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[sam]: that we had back in the day so just moving very quickly on from that

[sam]: just a real quick one i remember having a conversation with you on my coach

[sam]: back eighteen and nineteen and going back to that social media thing i remember seeing

[sam]: something on on the post and i think it was a super high protein break

[sam]: first know carbs and it said off to do four hours and i remember sending

[sam]: that to ally and yourself and i remember your going you don’t know where they

[sam]: are in their training sam you don’t know what sat to the right or the

[sam]: left so actually that social media is often just to snip it as well obviously

[sam]: there’s twenty four hours in a day the seven days in a week you don’t

[sam]: know where going so just moving on obviously i think social media is great but

[sam]: i also think it’s got huge amount of negatives as i think and it’s your

[sam]: right those negatives that you picked up with with myself and probably many other people

[sam]: they pick up on the extreme behaviors and then they try and copy themselves so

[sam]: i think that’s where the negatives

[jenny_tomei]: oh

[sam]: come in um m into those sort of things and you know that’s when you’re

[sam]: going through that phase that’s that’s where you draw upon isn’t it it’s it’s all

[sam]: those small bits where you’re trying to i guess find a definition within yourself is

[sam]: it m

[renee_mcgregor]: i think i think and i was talking about thinking about this this morning because

[renee_mcgregor]: obviously you know there’s this new b b c documentary bvucthree documentary on the moment

[renee_mcgregor]: with zarmcdermat

[sam]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: investigating eating disorders sort of eating

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: and i was i have to admit i watched watched it and i was really

[renee_mcgregor]: disappointed i thought it was

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: very badly done on i think what frustrated me is that they’ve chosen the presenter

[renee_mcgregor]: who is an influence and i get that’s the point you know until we stop

[renee_mcgregor]: until we stop

[jenny_tomei]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: using influences until brands stop wanting to perpetuate a particular image these individuals are not

[renee_mcgregor]: going to stop doing what they’re doing because that’s how they get paid fundamentally so

[renee_mcgregor]: if we are to protect the younger generation actually we need to stop having influences

[renee_mcgregor]: fundamentally that needs to stop being a career because it’s not helpful to anyone no

[renee_mcgregor]: it’s detrimental to people’s health and and the images are often you know of these

[renee_mcgregor]: very beautiful very like privileged background individuals who can make a living from social media

[renee_mcgregor]: because look a certain way they present a certain life style they have you know

[renee_mcgregor]: the ideal place where they live on they don’t

[jenny_tomei]: a

[renee_mcgregor]: they don’t have the educational knowledge to realize that what they are presenting feeding into

[renee_mcgregor]: individuals who are vulnerable

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: on encouraging that narrative of i’m not good enough a sense of unworthiness and i’m

[renee_mcgregor]: not going to be accepted i’m not going to be good unless i have that

[renee_mcgregor]: life so i think like social media is definitely perpetuating this problem and definitely holding

[renee_mcgregor]: people i don’t think we can ever say it’s the true cause of an eating

[renee_mcgregor]: disorder i think

[jenny_tomei]: i

[renee_mcgregor]: you’re looking at people who have eating disorders fundamentally and eating disorder is a complex

[renee_mcgregor]: mental illness no it is biological based mental illness in the sense that people will

[renee_mcgregor]: have a predisposition to it

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: but if you put them in the right psycho social space then that is going

[renee_mcgregor]: to create the perfect storm

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: for these is functional

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: behaviors to occur and i get a bit frustrated when people talk about diet culture

[renee_mcgregor]: diet culture diet culture diet culture does not cause eating disorders that informs us in

[renee_mcgregor]: form our external world but actually if our internal world is not balanced because you

[renee_mcgregor]: we’re not sleeping properly or we’re not eating properly or we’re not hydrating properly we’re

[renee_mcgregor]: not resting properly or our stress levels are high because our jobs are so high

[renee_mcgregor]: powered if our internal world is not celebrated is not kind of balanced and we’re

[renee_mcgregor]: not aware of that it’s these two worlds the external and the internal with that

[renee_mcgregor]: predisposition that leads these disfunctional behaviors so

[jenny_tomei]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: you know i think there’s there’s a lot of people who said what can we

[renee_mcgregor]: do about social media well the responsibility lies with the brands responsibility lies with the

[renee_mcgregor]: images they’re trying to create and the fact that they encourage influences to make this

[renee_mcgregor]: their career like i still find it a very weird world like you know i

[renee_mcgregor]: left school i went to one i had to do a degree i had to

[renee_mcgregor]: get a vocation and i have worked my arse for twenty years

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: once did i ever think that i was going to make a living from selling

[renee_mcgregor]: a product

[jenny_tomei]: of

[renee_mcgregor]: like it’s all weird to me and call me old but actually that is that

[renee_mcgregor]: is real life and the problem is when you are working an industry where you’re

[renee_mcgregor]: given everything and it’s all based on image you don’t really know what hard work

[renee_mcgregor]: is you don’t actually understand what it means to learn and educate and no to

[renee_mcgregor]: actually there will be times in your career where it is a bit flat and

[renee_mcgregor]: it doesn’t go well and you have to go and do some more studies to

[renee_mcgregor]: to move yourself forward so then i don’t know i have i have some real

[renee_mcgregor]: issues with social media obviously i appreciate i use it as a platform but i

[renee_mcgregor]: use as a platform to try and be the voice against all the noise

[sam]: my

[jenny_tomei]: and

[renee_mcgregor]: i’m not enough

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: make a massive difference but i know i make a difference and that’s why i

[renee_mcgregor]: continue to do it but i’m really really mindful of everything i post on social

[renee_mcgregor]: media like i’m very aware of my following i’m very aware of the messaging i’m

[renee_mcgregor]: very aware of potentially how that might be interpreted i’m very conscious that i share

[renee_mcgregor]: nothing personal on social media because actually people don’t need to really know about my

[renee_mcgregor]: life like i’m not here to share my life

[sam]: kit

[renee_mcgregor]: with the world i’m here to share my knowledge and my experience and if you

[renee_mcgregor]: want to know what’s going on in my if you have to be my friend

[renee_mcgregor]: and you know i’m quite private about how many people are let into that as

[renee_mcgregor]: well so i think maybe that’s an old fashioned way of looking at it but

[renee_mcgregor]: that’s kind of very much how look at it and the more i work in

[renee_mcgregor]: this industry the more individuals i work with the more i see this is the

[renee_mcgregor]: problem you know we’ve got this constant information coming in there’s no there’s no there’s

[renee_mcgregor]: no let up from it is constantly bombarding you and when the brain is constantly

[renee_mcgregor]: receiving this messaging of course it’s going to assume that that is factual that is

[renee_mcgregor]: that that has to be true i’m only goin to be accepted if i look

[renee_mcgregor]: like this i’m nly gonna be a good cyclist if i eat like this because

[renee_mcgregor]: the brain isn’t it it’s a most amazing organ but it’s also it is

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: logically biased

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: to

[sam]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: things as simply as possible and when it doesn’t know the answer to something it

[renee_mcgregor]: either sees it negatively because that’s easy or it goes back to a place where

[renee_mcgregor]: it might remember that well the last time i did this this happened to me

[renee_mcgregor]: and so then it just informs you that that’s what’s going to happen again rather

[renee_mcgregor]: than you taking a step back going okay well yeah there’s some emotions here that

[renee_mcgregor]: have been invoked to me that remind me of another situation this is a really

[renee_mcgregor]: different situation we don’t give ourselves time to do that and that’s a lot of

[renee_mcgregor]: the work i do is helping people to understand their personality types understand the purpose

[renee_mcgregor]: of their behaviors around food exercise

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: and training and then put that all together and learn to be a bit more

[renee_mcgregor]: mindful

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: of how they respond to their thoughts

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[sam]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: quite good at ranting about this as you can

[jenny_tomei]: very

[renee_mcgregor]: probably

[jenny_tomei]: well

[renee_mcgregor]: tell

[jenny_tomei]: said

[sam]: i think

[jenny_tomei]: o know

[sam]: we

[jenny_tomei]: what i’m

[renee_mcgregor]: a

[sam]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: i’m glad you said that about the influences but i’ve

[sam]: um

[jenny_tomei]: always wondered

[sam]: m

[jenny_tomei]: whether that very good for young people like seeing all that you know because i

[jenny_tomei]: think i would have suffered with that sort of growing up and like whether that’s

[jenny_tomei]: healthy for young people to be seeing all of that and like painting this image

[jenny_tomei]: of this unrealistic lifestyle like you know everyone has been bad days trying to obtain

[jenny_tomei]: like the unattainable so it’s really interesting that you said that actually

[renee_mcgregor]: i think jenny like i was talking to my daughter my daughter is going to

[renee_mcgregor]: be eighteen in two weeks and we were chatting about this last night i was

[renee_mcgregor]: like you know when i was growing up yes we had celebrities and we had

[renee_mcgregor]: film stars and we had pop stars and of course they were you know aspirational

[renee_mcgregor]: and you looked at them and you kind of like wow look at they look

[renee_mcgregor]: amazing but there was there was almost it was almost a boundary those are people

[renee_mcgregor]: that are that is what they do they’re over here

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: that they’re not attainable and so you while yes you may aspire to think oh

[renee_mcgregor]: wouldn’t it be nice to look like that it wasn’t something that informed you of

[renee_mcgregor]: i have to look like that to be accepted it was it was aspiration so

[renee_mcgregor]: the eating disorders of old if you want to call it that were very much

[renee_mcgregor]: around trauma you know like

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: somebody who did have an disorder might is order was very much in response to

[renee_mcgregor]: a dramatic event and it was my method of avoiding the difficult emotions around that

[renee_mcgregor]: avoiding the disappointment i felt

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: because of what had happened and it was a method of communicating how insignificant i

[renee_mcgregor]: felt right so it was a very

[jenny_tomei]: so

[renee_mcgregor]: different purse and i’m not saying people don’t have that now there’s still

[jenny_tomei]: no

[renee_mcgregor]: many many individuals with sort that is absolutely the case however the rise like you

[renee_mcgregor]: know like i think the last it was the being i over two hundred and

[renee_mcgregor]: twenty three per cent rise in prevalence of disordered eating and even disorders since

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: the pandemic you know the rise is actually more about this constant sense of unworthiness

[renee_mcgregor]: everybody is feeling

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: because there is so much noise out there about what ideal looks like

[jenny_tomei]: i do

[renee_mcgregor]: and so even the most robust of us you know who have got a lovely

[renee_mcgregor]: loving families and you know we have received unconditional love and all the things that

[renee_mcgregor]: are important for us to feel fully like fully self worth and fully content with

[renee_mcgregor]: who we are as people even the most of us struggling because we’re like yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: image keeps coming back up that life style is like

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: you know it gets a lot of attention or whatever and so is its influencing

[renee_mcgregor]: how we feel and it is creating fact

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: from imagery fundamentally and i think it’s just it’s just something i think it’s really

[renee_mcgregor]: important to people to understand that our thoughts and our emotions are important that they’re

[renee_mcgregor]: trying to help us to understand what is going on in our world but they’re

[renee_mcgregor]: not factual and learning to respond to that is a really big part of just

[renee_mcgregor]: actually surviving being a hum

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: in the world that we live in

[jenny_tomei]: definitely just because we’ve got a lot of questions to get through today i just

[jenny_tomei]: want to ask you quickly what would

[sam]: oh

[jenny_tomei]: you say what’s the difference between disordered eating and eating disorder because i see a

[jenny_tomei]: lot of people social media saying this is disorder eating and i’m like really i

[jenny_tomei]: don’t think it is so how would you distinguish the like because i was just

[jenny_tomei]: seen a lot of misinformation about it

[renee_mcgregor]: yah

[jenny_tomei]: i

[renee_mcgregor]: yah yeah i mean it’s a difficult one there’s a very very fine line

[jenny_tomei]: right

[renee_mcgregor]: between them if i’m honest but i suppose if you’re looking at it purely from

[renee_mcgregor]: a diagnostic criteria point of view eating disorders have specific no stick criteria

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: in the in order to be diagnosed with an exiobilinia bin in disorder to name

[renee_mcgregor]: a few you have to have certain characteristics

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: and within certain time frames

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: so that’s how an eating disorder is diagnosed whereas disordered eating is oh anything that

[renee_mcgregor]: causes a dis functional relationship with food you know when you when it impacts ability

[renee_mcgregor]: to live when it creates anxiety when its rules you feel you have to live

[renee_mcgregor]: by in order to feel this full sense of security to me that’s what disordered

[renee_mcgregor]: eating is and i say majority of people fall into this category but because there’s

[renee_mcgregor]: not diagnostic criteria for

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: it they often get overlooked and missed because they might not look some way they

[renee_mcgregor]: might not have the symptoms that are often associated with an eating disorder but that’s

[renee_mcgregor]: not to say they’re not equally as dangerous and

[jenny_tomei]: i

[renee_mcgregor]: often people will usually go down the road of disordered eating into an eating disorder

[jenny_tomei]: right

[renee_mcgregor]: because we know particularly if it’s restrictive eating

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: um you know if you’re removing food groups and you’re becoming very restrictive in your

[renee_mcgregor]: eating obviously if there is potentially that will have significant effects to your brain which

[renee_mcgregor]: can then

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: lead more to sort of anarexic cognition and an anax thinking

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: but equally if you have very rapid weight loss again that can also be problematic

[renee_mcgregor]: so that’s the main difference i would say

[jenny_tomei]: okay all right no thanks for that thank you sam we’ve lost your video

[sam]: because

[jenny_tomei]: by

[sam]: i know

[jenny_tomei]: the way

[sam]: when we yet really i should be back

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: i can see sam

[sam]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: are you okay

[sam]: so

[jenny_tomei]: that’s it’s just me then

[sam]: when we look

[jenny_tomei]: next question

[sam]: look

[jenny_tomei]: son

[sam]: like over some of our notes from yeah i looked back over some of our

[sam]: notes on twenty seventeen and and the first sentence actually said i don’t believe you

[sam]: have an eating disorder but i believe you have a strife of perfection ism and

[sam]: disordered eating and it’s really interesting what you said there and i just want to

[sam]: touch a little bit just so some p all can get an understanding of kind

[sam]: of how we spotted and how we dealt with itit was a long process as

[sam]: we know but just so people are aware of like signs and symptoms whether it’s

[sam]: family a coach for example who can’t see it um friends family members how did

[sam]: i come across to you what were the kind of signs and signs and symptoms

[sam]: and the explanations i was giving you i know it’s back in seventeen now but

[sam]: just what was what was i showing showing in our initial like brief food diaries

[sam]: things like that just as people get like an understanding of where it started and

[sam]: then how it drew out for another well three years let’s go with

[renee_mcgregor]: so

[jenny_tomei]: a

[renee_mcgregor]: i don’t remember saying you didn’t have any disorder

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: but okay maybe i did

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: i i think the key thing for me was absolute obsession with getting it right

[renee_mcgregor]: which obviously feeds into that perfectionism

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: and

[renee_mcgregor]: the most challenging part of working with you was your inability to recognize this was

[renee_mcgregor]: about something much deeper than just food and body image and no matter how much

[renee_mcgregor]: i tried to explain that to you you were not prepared to look at it

[sam]: he

[renee_mcgregor]: you just went back to food and body image the whole time which did make

[renee_mcgregor]: it challenging working with you because i think for you there’s been so much loss

[renee_mcgregor]: and so much sadness and so much trauma in your life that you just didn’t

[renee_mcgregor]: want to experience that which i completely understand and it’s much easier to talk to

[renee_mcgregor]: me about food and body image and training than it is to talk about stuff

[renee_mcgregor]: that really hurt

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: and that’s why you were doing it that’s why you were fixated on body image

[renee_mcgregor]: and training and that was really clear from day one and even though we had

[renee_mcgregor]: information about you know what was going on with you from from a physical point

[renee_mcgregor]: of view because we had blood on you and we had tangible data and we

[renee_mcgregor]: were saying this is what is happening to your body it still wasn’t enough at

[renee_mcgregor]: that point in that moment for you to

[jenny_tomei]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: fully except that there was a problem i think it took quite a long time

[renee_mcgregor]: before you like like when you came to me you knew something was wrong but

[renee_mcgregor]: i don’t think you were prepared to hear what i had to say initially it

[renee_mcgregor]: took you a while to basically to trust me and to trust the process of

[renee_mcgregor]: actually this is not really about food or exercise at all this is about something

[renee_mcgregor]: much deeper until i sought out that until i’m aware of what i’m working with

[renee_mcgregor]: i’m probably not going to be able to let go because as i said earlier

[renee_mcgregor]: food exercise body image there just the method of communication not the problem not

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: the issue there are means of expressing what’s really going on for someone and i

[renee_mcgregor]: think this is a really important point in terms of i want to make this

[renee_mcgregor]: point now is that when when you’re working with a practitioner you have got disordered

[renee_mcgregor]: eating or eating disorder they don’t recognize that that practitioner probably shouldn’t be working in

[renee_mcgregor]: the field either because it’s never about food it’s never about here’s a plan off

[renee_mcgregor]: you go now you needed some guidance because you were so under feeling and you

[renee_mcgregor]: were not prepared to give up your training that we had to give you guidance

[renee_mcgregor]: around your nutrition in order to start to re educate you and that is a

[renee_mcgregor]: big part of helping someone re education process but depending on what’s put in front

[renee_mcgregor]: of you sometimes actually you have to kind of leave the food off the table

[renee_mcgregor]: and actually start talking to them about their behavior you know what is the purpose

[renee_mcgregor]: of this behavior as a human if you can start to understand the purpose of

[renee_mcgregor]: all your behavior much more in a much better position to then consider do i

[renee_mcgregor]: need to carry on with this behavior

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: most of the time human behavior is all about protection trying to protect ourselves from

[renee_mcgregor]: something that was really incredibly difficult for us if you think about a small child

[renee_mcgregor]: who lies because they’ve broken something but they don’t want to get told off so

[renee_mcgregor]: they lie and say is their brother a sister or it was the dog or

[renee_mcgregor]: whatever to their parent

[sam]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: all they’re doing there is protecting themselves because they’re worried they’re going to get told

[renee_mcgregor]: off it’s the same thing so when we start using food and body image exercise

[renee_mcgregor]: that behavior provides a false sense security in if i get this right if i

[renee_mcgregor]: focus on this it provides me with this false sort of sense of containment

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: because if this is right then everything else will be right

[sam]: oh h

[renee_mcgregor]: um

[sam]: h

[renee_mcgregor]: and i think we struggled with you understanding that

[sam]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: probably a year before you finally were like

[sam]: m m

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah right now i get it but i think some of that was because we

[renee_mcgregor]: also had to improve your energy availabilities that you could actually you your brain to

[renee_mcgregor]: understand what was going on and that’s another big part of people you know when

[renee_mcgregor]: you’re under field and you are in low energy availability

[sam]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: it does cause your nervous system to be on high alert you do feel this

[renee_mcgregor]: sense of i’m going to say anxiety in inverted commerce because i think we over

[renee_mcgregor]: use the term anxiety lot but what’s really happening is that there’s a threat you

[renee_mcgregor]: know your body sees this under feeling as a threat and it’s creating that physiological

[renee_mcgregor]: sign of this threat in the body but because you don’t know what that threat

[renee_mcgregor]: is because you’re not you don’t there’s no way you think it’s about food or

[renee_mcgregor]: exercise or not resting enough you because of the world we live in we think

[renee_mcgregor]: or it’s because you know somebody said this to me or because that’s expected of

[renee_mcgregor]: me and i haven’t achieved it and so we were very good at projecting out

[renee_mcgregor]: all the time instead of going actually seologically yah i haven’t actually field properly

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: that might be the cause of why i’m feeling anxious and again i wish it

[renee_mcgregor]: was wish people would understand that you know because unfortunately the human body will respond

[renee_mcgregor]: physiologically to under feeling in the same way as it would respond to being chased

[renee_mcgregor]: in a in a strange way

[sam]: yeah yeah it was certainly a learning curve and it did take a long time

[sam]: we haven’t spoken that much but i did actually go and seek in the end

[sam]: we did get there eventually athlete wise i don’t know where we’ll go going into

[sam]: next year

[renee_mcgregor]: ye

[sam]: no

[renee_mcgregor]: oh

[sam]: adventures still lie ahead we achieved a fair amount but you know just finishing this

[sam]: topic we fully knew where it came from it did come from for people that

[sam]: haven’t heard about my story before i lost my mom in two thousand and fifteen

[sam]: and everything kind of deteriated quite fast from that so you know and that topic

[sam]: has now been addressed and we have moved forward with it slowly but we’re getting

[sam]: there i think we know it was always going to be a battle but yeah

[sam]: we right and we still just eat plenty of food so we’re on the right

[sam]: track just just to cover one more topic was for myself was going over a

[sam]: threxia because obviously i think the problem i had o and you noticed it was

[sam]: yes there was limited fueling definitely but there was also a and on top of

[sam]: that there was a desire to eat very good food very clean food and inverted

[sam]: commas or threat tendencies no very low sugar no process needed to know the ingredients

[sam]: so people are aware because it isn’t spoken about a lot it is getting better

[sam]: people are opening up to it

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[sam]: just to keep

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[sam]: this one

[jenny_tomei]: m

[sam]: slightly short of what what should people look out for you know friends family tea

[sam]: mates especially that seems to be coming back into endurance sport what the scent symptoms

[sam]: of someone developing that aurthorexic tendencies or way of life

[sam]: m it might have come

[renee_mcgregor]: sorry i lost you there

[jenny_tomei]: lost

[sam]: it’s

[jenny_tomei]: you

[sam]: just

[jenny_tomei]: there

[sam]: got

[jenny_tomei]: say that again

[sam]: it’s just what are the kind of a threat it tendencies that we need to

[sam]: look for in friends family team mates how can we see like they’re starting to

[sam]: go down this brow clean root

[renee_mcgregor]: yes the definition of authorexya is the obsession with eating purely or eating correctly and

[renee_mcgregor]: so it is very common in athletes particularly because you know there’s this kind of

[renee_mcgregor]: notions having to eat yeh i guess if you want to call it cleanly i

[renee_mcgregor]: don’t really still don’t personally understand what that means but you know this kind of

[renee_mcgregor]: need to keep it pure this need to keep it kind of yeah free of

[renee_mcgregor]: process food but again i would question well what’s a process food like it’s a

[renee_mcgregor]: very kind of there’s a lot of there’s a lot of gray areas in terms

[renee_mcgregor]: of what is this life style but again you know we go back to the

[renee_mcgregor]: messages that are out there definitely demon certain foods and definitely provide other foods with

[renee_mcgregor]: halo effects and i think you know that’s where author kicks in and it’s not

[renee_mcgregor]: it’s not like again we have now got some quite clear diagnostic criteria for authorex

[renee_mcgregor]: year and in fact the the concensus statement came out last yesterday and i’m part

[renee_mcgregor]: of the consensus group so we were published yesterday which is very exciting and it’s

[renee_mcgregor]: the first step i think for authorize to be actually recognized as a problem in

[renee_mcgregor]: its own right

[jenny_tomei]: i

[renee_mcgregor]: so some of the symptoms you might see will be kind of ye some o

[renee_mcgregor]: the symptoms you’d see will be things like avoiding certain food groups so it might

[renee_mcgregor]: be that you avoid things like sugar you might avoid things like potentially carbohydrate although

[renee_mcgregor]: i think people sing to realize the importance of card now particularly in a athletic

[renee_mcgregor]: point of view but the fear around sugar is

[sam]: yet

[renee_mcgregor]: still big you might avoid certain things like dairy for example you may practice certain

[renee_mcgregor]: types of nutrition approaches such as doing detoxing regularly because you feel that it kind

[renee_mcgregor]: of help you reset and so there’s a lot of rules a lot of rules

[renee_mcgregor]: and often somebody who is severely author it will struggle to deviate from these rules

[renee_mcgregor]: because again the rules provide them with this false in security that they’re safe in

[renee_mcgregor]: some way it’s very much about being healthy it’s not like with anoxia or even

[renee_mcgregor]: belem it’s not really around body image is such it’s much more about

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: this purest this need to be pure this need to be healthy this need to

[renee_mcgregor]: be correct and we’re definitely seeing it more and the individual tends to because of

[renee_mcgregor]: this the indidul does tend to be very evangelistic around the way they eat so

[renee_mcgregor]: you know when when veganism became very very popular a few years ago that was

[renee_mcgregor]: very much kind of not saying for one reason that i’m not saying for a

[renee_mcgregor]: reason that there’s nothing wrong with being big and there isn’t however we do know

[renee_mcgregor]: that it can be a method of disguising author traits because obviously it gives you

[renee_mcgregor]: a legitimate reason to avoid certain food groups

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: and you you work through when somebody is authorexic because they’re began because you you

[renee_mcgregor]: know he’s there’s means and ways of being a healthy individual following a vegan diet

[renee_mcgregor]: in you know there are certain products you would encourage over other products as example

[renee_mcgregor]: you would encourage them to have say rather than almond milk because that gives a

[renee_mcgregor]: lot much more protein however if the individual is always pushing back on that you

[renee_mcgregor]: kind of know what something probably deeper rooted going on here rather than

[jenny_tomei]: i

[renee_mcgregor]: it just being about veganism so i think like to kind of simplify it is

[renee_mcgregor]: that this this very evangelistic surest way of eating but often leads to a lot

[renee_mcgregor]: of restrictions that can then start to have quite negative consequences on your health and

[renee_mcgregor]: your performance if you are an athlete

[jenny_tomei]: okay what

[sam]: i mean

[jenny_tomei]: sort

[sam]: i

[jenny_tomei]: of

[sam]: think we’ll

[jenny_tomei]: what sort of

[sam]: touch

[jenny_tomei]: side effects

[sam]: on that

[jenny_tomei]: okay when you’re in touch on that now

[sam]: i think we we we we’re going to touch on that in a few episodes

[sam]: late you know the dangers of being an endurance athlete an our thorax but i

[sam]: know i know one thing jed

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[sam]: did want to talk about was kind of around female athlete tried quickly because i

[sam]: know it’s something that is now coming more in the in the media both socially

[sam]: and on the news and it would be really good to hear jenny’s question on

[sam]: that and what you’re thoughts on it are and tips and strategies around it gen

[jenny_tomei]: i mean first obviously

[sam]: is she

[jenny_tomei]: just

[sam]: there

[jenny_tomei]: want to get across what white is red can you hear me

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[sam]: oh

[jenny_tomei]: a good it’s relative

[renee_mcgregor]: i can

[jenny_tomei]: energy

[renee_mcgregor]: he

[jenny_tomei]: posit

[sam]: m

[jenny_tomei]: in dom isn’t it so so what are the tips and strategies like for a

[jenny_tomei]: female athlete who has lost their period for like greater than six months like what

[jenny_tomei]: would you suggest for them

[renee_mcgregor]: i think i mean because you’ve mentioned female athlete trade and you’ve mentioned reads quite

[renee_mcgregor]: important to kind of explain how they overlap because

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: we don’t use the term female athlete tried any more at all

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: we use reds which is relative energy deficiency in sport and that’s because we worked

[renee_mcgregor]: out you know i see consensus group came together and they appreciated that this low

[renee_mcgregor]: energy availability that undepends issues to hormones and then bone health actually wasn’t just exclusive

[renee_mcgregor]: to females it was actually something that happens to both males and females so the

[renee_mcgregor]: triad no long it exists because we know that actually if you have low energy

[renee_mcgregor]: availability then you have that that will affect the production of things like estrogen and

[renee_mcgregor]: testostoron if both are low they start to affect bone health however we also know

[renee_mcgregor]: that it’s not just again exclusive to bone health and hormones actually affects every single

[renee_mcgregor]: biological process in the body it can affect your performance your body composition your digestive

[renee_mcgregor]: system

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: your psychology potentially in some individuals your cardiac health it’s a full full body system

[renee_mcgregor]: issue

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: fundamentally and that’s what red is and so in female athletes one of the symptoms

[renee_mcgregor]: you may get is changes to your menstr cycle and it might be the initially

[renee_mcgregor]: the menstral cycle gets a bit more erratic so like it could get shorter cycles

[renee_mcgregor]: you can get longer cycles

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: you might get lighter cycles and then eventually you might get this complete cessation of

[renee_mcgregor]: cycles and as said jenny if you get more than six

[sam]: yes

[renee_mcgregor]: if you lose you lose your cycle for more than six months then that in

[renee_mcgregor]: this country is known as hypodermic amen are and it’s secondary hypodermic amen area because

[renee_mcgregor]: you’ve because you’ve lost your period

[jenny_tomei]: right

[renee_mcgregor]: and it is a problem because we know as actually as little as losing three

[renee_mcgregor]: cycles can start have a negative effect on your bone health and put you a

[renee_mcgregor]: much higher risk of injury and illness including like tendon and ligament damage as well

[renee_mcgregor]: as then potentially bone bone issues so you know you can be i risk of

[renee_mcgregor]: stress fractures and also that takes you out for a very long time and it

[renee_mcgregor]: means you can’t be consistent with your with your training and then your performance so

[renee_mcgregor]: we know it’s a it’s a it’s a big issue in terms of helping female

[renee_mcgregor]: athlete restore menstration again it’s much more complicated than just energy

[sam]: a

[renee_mcgregor]: in versus energy out which is i think what is still being pushed

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: out there it’s a it’s a multi it’s a multi faceted problem in a sense

[renee_mcgregor]: that the human body obviously works in all these different feedback loops on fundamentally everything

[renee_mcgregor]: is controlled by the hyporthanemus so if the hyperthalumis detects any sort of stress in

[renee_mcgregor]: the body it’s going to start shutting down umhormonal production but it will also shut

[renee_mcgregor]: down all sorts of other things as well so when an individual comes to us

[renee_mcgregor]: with hypothetic amen are we do a full assessment and we look at sort of

[renee_mcgregor]: blood levels we look at training load we look at nutritional intake we look at

[renee_mcgregor]: kind of history like how long has this been going on for you look at

[renee_mcgregor]: sort of also like body composition history because actually that tells us a lot about

[renee_mcgregor]: the person

[jenny_tomei]: what

[renee_mcgregor]: and you know as we know a lot of female athletes believe they should fit

[renee_mcgregor]: a certain ideal but if genetically their senor type is not that way inclined

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: then actually there’s no way they’re going to have a menstralcycle at that ideal and

[renee_mcgregor]: then the challenge there is helping them to accept that for them to be a

[renee_mcgregor]: healthy and optimal athlete they probably need to be a slightly different physique than what

[renee_mcgregor]: they deem ideal so

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: you know there’s it’s a very complicated picture it’s not just about eat more and

[renee_mcgregor]: train less as sometimes we don’t have to change training too much but we do

[renee_mcgregor]: have to look at nutritional timing and nutrition of composition sometimes we do have to

[renee_mcgregor]: say really sorry but you’re going to have to pull back on the training significantly

[renee_mcgregor]: and again a lot of that is dependent on what is what is presented so

[renee_mcgregor]: you know and sometimes we get the training and the nutrition absolutely right but it

[renee_mcgregor]: still takes a long time for menstruation to return and that might be because there

[renee_mcgregor]: are other factors like poor sleep emotional stress or work stress or you know

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: other things that are going on so it’s not it’s quite a complicated picture

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: and again one of my big frustrations is how it’s been plified and dumb down

[renee_mcgregor]: that it’s just about energy availability

[jenny_tomei]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: and it’s just about kind of you know heating a certain number and actually that’s

[renee_mcgregor]: not always the case and that can be quite a dangerous approach if people kind

[renee_mcgregor]: of just go with this it’s just a certain number of calories that you need

[renee_mcgregor]: to hit because actually that doesn’t help the individual understand go back to what i

[renee_mcgregor]: was talking about earlier it doesn’t help the individual understand where the root of the

[renee_mcgregor]: issue is and how to mitigate it in the future which is

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: kind of what you want to do with want this this athlete to be resilient

[renee_mcgregor]: and robust

[jenny_tomei]: okay so it was

[sam]: on

[jenny_tomei]: hypethicanare wasn’t yea i say that right

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: okay and that’s more than

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: six months yeah ago yeah because i’m entered

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: because that’s

[sam]: oh

[jenny_tomei]: something obviously i’m interested in that and everyone knows my story as well like one

[jenny_tomei]: here because i suffered with that so you know so it’s

[sam]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: an your riots more than it’s

[sam]: yeah

[jenny_tomei]: not just about like this there are a lot of factors in my life that

[jenny_tomei]: was going on in terms of a lot of stress and anxiety in my body

[jenny_tomei]: being in a constant like fight off light state like constantly and that had a

[jenny_tomei]: massive impact on my gut where you know i had to stop training like completely

[jenny_tomei]: i had like inflammation and i was told that i had like a very leaky

[jenny_tomei]: got all this type of thing

[sam]: oh

[jenny_tomei]: and it

[sam]: ah

[jenny_tomei]: definitely was because yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: but

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah but if you are in low energy availability then you will have increased permiability

[renee_mcgregor]: of your got

[jenny_tomei]: right

[renee_mcgregor]: like that is a common symptom and i think that’s it it’s like it’s really

[renee_mcgregor]: important that this is why the whole broad spectrum of symptoms is so important to

[renee_mcgregor]: understand because some women’s mental cycle won’t be affected but they may still have a

[renee_mcgregor]: leaky gut they may still have gastroperesis they may still

[jenny_tomei]: right

[renee_mcgregor]: have increase you know tendon and ligament damage they may have autommunetype symptoms showing and

[renee_mcgregor]: this is the problem like it’s so much bigger than we first thought on the

[renee_mcgregor]: fix and on just the menstralcycle meant that not only did half the population get

[renee_mcgregor]: overlooked but it also meant that some of the females that didn’t show changes in

[renee_mcgregor]: their menstralcycle were also being overlooked and yet they still had problems

[sam]: i

[renee_mcgregor]: so

[jenny_tomei]: ah

[renee_mcgregor]: it’s a it’s a it’s a very is a complicated red as is not simple

[sam]: it

[jenny_tomei]: no ah

[renee_mcgregor]: it’s not a simple simple condition it’s very very complicated and affects people in many

[renee_mcgregor]: many ways and it takes a long time for the body to re align and

[renee_mcgregor]: appreciate the threat of stress whatever that stress might be

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: is no longer apparent

[jenny_tomei]: yeah definitely it’s really interesting um m thanks for sharing that makes a lot of

[jenny_tomei]: sense

[jenny_tomei]: so

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[jenny_tomei]: sam what

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[jenny_tomei]: you

[sam]: with

[jenny_tomei]: want ask the next question

[sam]: with

[jenny_tomei]: what

[sam]: time

[jenny_tomei]: we’re going into it

[sam]: yeah just time pressing on obviously

[jenny_tomei]: m

[sam]: we can talk about all this stuff for hours we’ll do one more question we’ve

[sam]: just got some quick fire

[renee_mcgregor]: i

[sam]: questions

[renee_mcgregor]: speak

[sam]: for you at the end really that’s quick fires based just what i

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[sam]: know about what you like and dislike so obviously one thing i have noticed very

[sam]: quickly is this five a m club thing has become a massive thing on social

[sam]: media at the minute or i must be up at five get my training done

[sam]: and then i’m at my desk for the next twelve hours within that there must

[sam]: be some nutritional issues i eating at five o’clock in the morning first isn’t easy

[sam]: and there’s particularly enjoyable so on that

[jenny_tomei]: uh

[sam]: people are training

[jenny_tomei]: h

[sam]: fasted you know what is what are first quickly your thoughts on faster training and

[sam]: second what are the dangers of faster training because if these are time crunched athletes

[sam]: it’s not going to be a recovery pace and it’s probably not going to be

[sam]: that low end you know zone two very steady hour it’s going to be something

[sam]: quite high intense hind stephen sorry

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: so the issue with i mean the several issues

[sam]: yeah a

[renee_mcgregor]: training at five a m one is you’re probably not getting enough sleep and sleep

[renee_mcgregor]: is really important for your recovery process and is again often completely undervalued the importance

[renee_mcgregor]: of sleep on our mental and

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: physical health and go back to that internal

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: world if we haven’t slept very well then actually our internal world will be off

[renee_mcgregor]: kilter so that’s something to be and full of secondly we know that when we

[renee_mcgregor]: wake in the morning our quarters level which is our stress form and is always

[renee_mcgregor]: at its highest and if you then add

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: another layer of stress to that so another layer of physical stress in terms of

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: training then potentially you could end up with chronically high quarters or levels you have

[renee_mcgregor]: conically high cortical levels a number of things happen one you tend to actually hold

[renee_mcgregor]: on to more

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: body fat truncally so you don’t actually get the benefit of training also it changes

[renee_mcgregor]: your metabolism of both carbohydrate and fat and so actually you become less efficient at

[renee_mcgregor]: you fueling generally and kind of digestion so it’s not i appreciate some people feel

[renee_mcgregor]: that’s the only time they’ve got but it definitely isn’t something that should be encouraged

[renee_mcgregor]: or recommended any coaches if they want to be responsible but obviously people will do

[renee_mcgregor]: what they will do because that is just the nature of humans and i think

[renee_mcgregor]: like if you’re going to do these five am clubs and you really need to

[renee_mcgregor]: be thinking about how to feel them properly so if you do these fasted all

[renee_mcgregor]: you’re doing is adding another layer of particularly if you’re doing these sessions you know

[renee_mcgregor]: like more of interval base sessions or hill rep type sessions or kind of you

[renee_mcgregor]: know holding higher zone for a longer period of time like a tempo type session

[renee_mcgregor]: like all of these are going to add a lot more stress to

[sam]: oh

[renee_mcgregor]: the body so

[jenny_tomei]: hm

[renee_mcgregor]: you’re fundamentally setting yourself up to fail in the long run because you’re one you’re

[renee_mcgregor]: not going to progress and to your performance will start to deteriorate eventually because it

[renee_mcgregor]: just cannot adapt appropriately um and we know that fasted sessions should generally be restricted

[renee_mcgregor]: to more like recovery sessions and they should never really be more than about six

[renee_mcgregor]: and ninety minutes max and really should not doing more than one or two of

[renee_mcgregor]: those a week

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[renee_mcgregor]: to be to be honest if you want to be optimal with your performance and

[renee_mcgregor]: your health as well so like some of the ideas i give people i work

[renee_mcgregor]: with is you know it doesn’t have to be that you have a full breakfast

[renee_mcgregor]: at five a m or for thirty or whatever it is is just making sure

[renee_mcgregor]: that there is energy available so potentially it might be having sports drink that you

[renee_mcgregor]: know you take a few sips of before you jump on the bike and then

[renee_mcgregor]: you take that with you and you keep on sipping on it so actually at

[renee_mcgregor]: least there’s some energy available to mitigate some of that potential stress um

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: or you know like you train your gut i mean i don’t do early morning

[renee_mcgregor]: sessions but i have trained my got to take fuel before i run so i

[renee_mcgregor]: can eat and run in half an hour because i’ve trained my got to be

[renee_mcgregor]: to do that

[jenny_tomei]: kay

[renee_mcgregor]: so you know that’s a case of kind of

[sam]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: that’s a case of trying to yea does just get used to your body being

[renee_mcgregor]: able to do that and so that means you have to do it and yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: you may have a couple of acts it’s along the way but that’s how you

[renee_mcgregor]: train you got to do it but like i said it’s about finding things that

[renee_mcgregor]: deliver but not necessarily going to be difficult to digest so i would never say

[renee_mcgregor]: you need to get a massive roll of porridge before you go and do a

[renee_mcgregor]: bike ride but actually can you have a glass of juice and a banana and

[renee_mcgregor]: you have

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[renee_mcgregor]: a slice of toast and then have a banana within twenty minutes of being on

[renee_mcgregor]: the bike you know it’s just about trying to mitigate the levels of stress in

[renee_mcgregor]: your body

[sam]: all sounds right

[jenny_tomei]: definitely uh

[sam]: just going that was something you

[jenny_tomei]: ah

[sam]: and i had to work on because i was so scared of eating before draining

[sam]: that i used to have to leave two hours whatever i ate and that’s what

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[sam]: i think looking back and i’ve reflected was my main

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[sam]: issue with red but actually yes i might have

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[sam]: had a bowl of porridge

[renee_mcgregor]: yeah

[sam]: but i was still waiting to as the train so i’ve probably negated that bowl

[sam]: of porage in terms of energy availability looking back when i’ve looked over but that’s

[renee_mcgregor]: a

[sam]: all the main questions i just want kind of the listeners who have tuned in

[sam]: before to just know a little bit more about yourself just a few little teasing

[sam]: questions

[renee_mcgregor]: okay

[sam]: just that i know about your personality only from the years we’ve spoken about so

[sam]: i know this

[jenny_tomei]: m

[sam]: i know the answer this

[renee_mcgregor]: i

[sam]: one would you

[renee_mcgregor]: no

[sam]: rather

[renee_mcgregor]: i

[sam]: go to the beach or would you rather be up in the mountains

[renee_mcgregor]: mountains

[sam]: matins i thought so

[jenny_tomei]: uh

[sam]: are you a coffee

[jenny_tomei]: uh

[sam]: or a tea person

[renee_mcgregor]: coffee

[sam]: i thought so i’d know the answer this are you

[jenny_tomei]: okay

[sam]: a dog or a cat person

[renee_mcgregor]: o

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[sam]: so

[renee_mcgregor]: oh

[sam]: and then just a few around nutrition if you would go up for me or

[sam]: would you rather have a starter or a desert oh

[renee_mcgregor]: state

[sam]: i’ve got that one okay if you were

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[sam]: to have a desert

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[sam]: would you have a chocolate brown or apple crumble with some custard

[renee_mcgregor]: apple crumble

[sam]: i thought that might be the answer

[jenny_tomei]: get out

[sam]: that’s that’s

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[sam]: everything covered as bob

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[sam]: maybe i did well the did anyway thank you ever so

[jenny_tomei]: so

[sam]: much for coming on today have you got any closing words or

[jenny_tomei]: yeah

[sam]: little bits of advice and then we can wrap everything up

[renee_mcgregor]: i think all i’d say is just remember that humans are

[sam]: m

[renee_mcgregor]: i always say this they are a really fine piece of engineering and if you

[renee_mcgregor]: focus on outcome alone going to disrupt that engineering because you don’t often appreciate that

[renee_mcgregor]: fixating on one aspect is going to disrupt something internally

[sam]: my

[renee_mcgregor]: somewhere else so that’s kind of my parting words

[sam]: i think that’s pretty much spot on obviously working before i know your

[renee_mcgregor]: oh

[sam]: your take on things and your your outlook on life and that seems a very

[sam]: nice way to summarize the last hour really that just lose a little

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[sam]: bit of the control element and just go with life a little bit more things

[sam]: can be okay

[sam]: ah

[renee_mcgregor]: definitely

[sam]: do you just

[jenny_tomei]: well

[sam]: want

[jenny_tomei]: thank

[sam]: to run

[jenny_tomei]: you

[sam]: through

[jenny_tomei]: so

[sam]: the

[jenny_tomei]: much

[sam]: competition jenny and then we can just wrap everything

[jenny_tomei]: yeah so we’re going

[sam]: just

[jenny_tomei]: to

[sam]: run

[jenny_tomei]: give

[sam]: through

[jenny_tomei]: away

[sam]: the camp

[jenny_tomei]: runs book so it’s more for you you you can find out details i thin

[jenny_tomei]: we’re gonna post it

[renee_mcgregor]: m

[jenny_tomei]: about on instagram

[renee_mcgregor]: oh

[jenny_tomei]: as well so you can find the link as well to the competition in their

[jenny_tomei]: show notes as well which i’m going to put out and so you have all

[jenny_tomei]: that inform ation there but just want to say thanks again for rene for coming

[jenny_tomei]: on really appreciate it and thanks for listening everyone and thank you to sam for

[jenny_tomei]: chasing

[sam]: thank you

[jenny_tomei]: yes

[sam]: very much

[renee_mcgregor]: thanks everyone